tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-49530083779503963172024-03-18T18:19:10.690-07:00SearchReSearchA blog about search, search skills, teaching search, learning how to search, learning how to use Google effectively, learning how to do research. It also covers a good deal of sensemaking and information foraging.Dan Russellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13603209997260423532noreply@blogger.comBlogger1387125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4953008377950396317.post-60426417023507368692024-03-14T13:10:00.000-07:002024-03-14T13:10:24.881-07:00Part 4: (3/14/24) How do animals fake each other out, and why?<p> <span style="font-size: x-large;"><span style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"> </span><i style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: georgia;"><b><span style="color: #783f04;">Mussels are remarkable...</span> </b></i></span></p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1019" data-original-width="645" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEha0kd_f4HCjuFilVvzRL8MOZJ6a4fD9EZpmAPzwHlsqWkW7YUE9OYI7miO7i_a_z6zI7p6u1UN7kCd-ENsO39SMajYhC13IHnrl56GYVXtc8cXGBKYwM3dZZIJ6Yzv3C2HA8NEQtPAnxVS3SDWsg6_ef4iOkYNxfxNgFb2MHk4YFixzWDDReJpWQb_SC8/w406-h640/mussels.png" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; border: 1px solid rgb(238, 238, 238); box-shadow: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.1) 1px 1px 5px; margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto; padding: 5px; position: relative;" width="406" /></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">California mussel (<i>Mytilus californianus</i>) </td></tr></tbody></table><div class="separator" style="background-color: white; clear: both; color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13.2px; text-align: center;"><a data-abc="true" href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEha0kd_f4HCjuFilVvzRL8MOZJ6a4fD9EZpmAPzwHlsqWkW7YUE9OYI7miO7i_a_z6zI7p6u1UN7kCd-ENsO39SMajYhC13IHnrl56GYVXtc8cXGBKYwM3dZZIJ6Yzv3C2HA8NEQtPAnxVS3SDWsg6_ef4iOkYNxfxNgFb2MHk4YFixzWDDReJpWQb_SC8/s1019/mussels.png" style="color: #1119cc; margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em; text-decoration-line: none;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"></span></a></div><div style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13.2px;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><br /></span></div><span style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;">.</span><span style="font-size: medium;">.. I hope I've convinced you of that</span></span><span style="font-size: medium;"><span face="Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif" style="color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia;">. We've learned about the amazing mimicry behavior of mussels--they use both their mantles (soft tissue at the edge of the shell) and create conglutinates (long mucus-like secretions in which they tuck some glochidia), both of which look like prey items to lure fish to take a bite, but end up spraying the larval glochidia into their mouth and onto the gills. </span></span></span><div><div style="background-color: white;"><div style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span></div><div style="color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">The point of all this fakery and elaborate mimicry is to get their larval baby mussels (aka <i>glochidia</i>) onto the gills where they can clamp on for a temporary ride on the host fish. The big question you are probably asking yourself now is this... </span></div><div style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span></div><div><div style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="color: #990000; font-family: georgia;"><b><span style="font-size: medium;">3. The point of all this mussel-bound fakery is to get the glochidia into the gills of fish. Are the glochidia actually parasites? Or are they just hitching a ride on the fish's gills? </span></b></span></span></div><div style="color: #222222;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div style="color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">The big question here is to determine if the glochidia are <i>actually </i>parasites on the fish, or if they're just along for the ride. As we've learned in the last two posts, getting the precise word to describe what you're searching for is often a huge help. So, let's look for the right word by doing this search: </span></div><div style="color: #222222;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><b><span style="font-family: arial;"><span style="color: #222222; font-size: medium;"> [ </span><span style="color: #222222; font-size: medium;">a word describing an organism that gets a free ride on a host ] </span></span></b></div><div><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">With a little looking at those results I learned the exact definitions of: </span></div><div><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div></div></div></div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><div><div style="background-color: white;"><div><div style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><i><span style="color: #274e13;"><b>Commensalism</b></span></i><span style="color: #222222;"> ... in which members of one species gain benefits while those of the other species neither benefit nor are harmed</span></span></div></div></div></div><div><div style="background-color: white;"><div><div style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><i><span style="color: #274e13;"><b>Mutualism</b></span></i><span style="color: #222222;">... in which both organisms benefit from each other; </span></span></div></div></div></div><div><div style="background-color: white;"><div><div style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><i><span style="color: #274e13;"><b>Amensalism</b></span></i><span style="color: #222222;">... where one is harmed while the other is unaffected</span></span></div></div></div></div><div><div style="background-color: white;"><div><div style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><i><span style="color: #274e13;"><b>Parasitism</b></span></i><span style="color: #222222;">... where one is harmed and the other benefits, usually in order to obtain nutrients</span></span></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><div style="background-color: white;"><div><div><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">AND </span></div><div><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div></div></div></div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0 0 0 40px; padding: 0px;"><div><div style="background-color: white;"><div><div style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><i><b><span style="color: #274e13;">Phoresy</span></b></i><span style="color: #222222;"> ... in which a phoretic animal latches onto a host animal for the purpose of dispersal. </span></span></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><div style="background-color: white;"><div><div><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">The word <i>phoresy</i> derives from the Greek <i>phorein</i>, which means ‘to carry’. Typically, the attacher is an animal, such as a nematode or mite, with limited ability to travel great distances on its own is happy to get a lift from a highly mobile host, such as a fly or bee. (More details at the <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoresis" target="_blank">Wikipedia entry for phoresy</a>.) </span></div><div><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">So, now we have a very precise term to search for what we want: Are <i>glochidia</i> <b>parasites </b>or<b> phoronts</b>? </span></div><div><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Next query: </span></div><div><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #222222; font-family: arial; font-size: medium;"><b> [ mussel glochidia parasite phoresy ] </b></span></div></div><div style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span></div><div style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span></div><div style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;">This takes us to several great resources. Here's the first one: </span></span></div><div style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span></div><div><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">“<a href="https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10231222/" target="_blank">Plasticity, Paralogy, and Pseudogenization: Rhabdoviruses of Freshwater Mussels Elucidate Mechanisms of Viral Genome Diversification and the Evolution of the Finfish-Infecting Rhabdoviral Genera</a>” (Full citation below.) </span></div><div><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"> This paper tells us that </span></div><div><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div></div></div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0 0 0 40px; padding: 0px;"><div><div style="background-color: white;"><div style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;"><span style="color: #222222;">“These larvae [glochidia] attach to the gills or fins of the fish, encyst and derive nutrients from fish blood and tissues, complete metamorphosis and excyst, then drop off to begin their sessile, filter-feeding life stage” Later on it says that </span><span style="color: #222222;">“Freshwater mussel larvae attach to fish and feed on tissues and blood..." </span></span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia;"> </span></span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><div style="background-color: white;"><div><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span></div><div><span style="font-size: medium;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia;">HOWEVER... the next paper listed in the SERP is this one: </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia;">"Adaptations to host infection and larval parasitism in Unionoida."</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia;"> </span></span></div><div><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">And this paper says: </span></div><div><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div></div></div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0 0 0 40px; padding: 0px;"><div><div style="background-color: white;"><div style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed; font-size: medium;"><span style="color: #222222;">"Freshwater mussel larval parasitism of fish is unique among bivalves. The relationship is primarily <i>phoretic</i> rather than nutritive; only the smallest glochidia and the haustorial [a parasite that penetrates the tissues of the host] larva grow substantially while on the host. Growth of the smallest larvae suggests a lower functional size limit of ~150 μm</span><span style="color: #222222;"> for the juveniles... " </span></span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><div style="background-color: white;"><div><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div style="color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Uh oh. We've got a difference of a opinion. The first paper is written by virologists looking for a way that mussels transmit viruses to fish, so their focus is really on mussel-to-fish blood contact. While everyone agrees that the glochidia create little cysts while attached to the gills, it's kind of a relative thing--do they actually pull nutrients from the host fish or not? In the "<a href="https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/full/10.1899/07-093.1" target="_blank">Adaptations</a>" paper, they say (basically) that "sure, there's a little extraction, but not much..." </span></div><div style="color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">I'll spare you the entertaining hours I spent reading papers in <i>benthology</i> (that is, </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">is the study of the community of organisms that live on, in, or near the bottom of a sea, river, lake, or stream--that is, the <i>benthos</i>), but will summarize it by saying that there is a debate about how parasitical the glochidia are in reality. Some researchers find that their is nutrient exchange between the host fish and the mussel (see "<a href="https://www.mdpi.com/2673-9917/2/1/3" target="_blank">Glochidia Infection</a>" in the citation list below) where they write that: </span></div><div><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div></div></div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0 0 0 40px; padding: 0px;"><div><div style="background-color: white;"><div style="text-align: left;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Roboto Condensed; font-size: medium;">"Although the relationship between glochidium larvae of freshwater mussels Unionoida and their obligatory fish hosts has been frequently described as phoretic commensalism (glochidia benefit from transportation services by fish, with no harm to fish) or even symbiotic (both partners benefit), increasing evidence has indicated that the relationship is parasitic. Stable isotope analysis, during the glochidial attachment to the fish host, indicates the acquirement of nutrients from the fish." </span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><div style="background-color: white;"><div><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span></div><div><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;">So the debate is really about <i>how many</i> nutrients the glochidia pull out of the host fish and whether or not the mussels are really primarily along for the ride to other locations in the river or stream. </span></span></div><div><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span></div><div><span style="font-size: medium;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia;">The last paper I'll cite is this one, </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia;">"</span><a href="https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/C6AD2F8CAFE85F9053514D2FC38D36B2/S0031182022001226a.pdf/div-class-title-effects-of-parasitic-freshwater-mussels-on-their-host-fishes-a-review-div.pdf" style="font-family: georgia;" target="_blank">Effects of parasitic freshwater mussels on their host fishes: a review</a><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia;">."</span></span></div><div><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div></div></div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0 0 0 40px; padding: 0px;"><div><div style="background-color: white;"><div style="text-align: left;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Roboto Condensed; font-size: medium;">“No specific glochidia structures have been observed to extract nutrients from the host, but stable isotope analysis does show such transfer. It is hypothesized that this transfer results from the glochidia digesting the host tissue captured within the initial bite. Denzymes used in the process of breaking down the captured tissue may seep out of the glochidia and digest some surrounding host tissue. Passive absorption of compounds from the intercellular space and blood plasma has also been proposed.” </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"> </span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><div style="background-color: white;"><div><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">So.. maybe it's not such a big deal, just a <i>little </i>bite. </span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">But as always, <span style="color: #990000;">use caution when asking LLMs about a topic even as esoteric as this one</span>. </span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><b>Q: do Freshwater mussel larvae attach to fish and feed on tissues and blood? </b></span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><b>Gemini: </b></span></div></div></div></div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><div><div style="background-color: white;"><div><div><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed; font-size: medium;">“While freshwater mussel larvae do attach to fish, they don't feed on tissues and blood… The glochidia is NOT parasitic and doesn't harm the fish. </span></div></div></div></div><div><div style="background-color: white;"><div><div><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div></div></div></div><div><div style="background-color: white;"><div><div><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed; font-size: medium;">Here's a breakdown of the interesting relationship between freshwater mussels and fish:</span></div></div></div></div><div><div style="background-color: white;"><div><div><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div></div></div></div><div><div style="background-color: white;"><div><div><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed; font-size: medium;"><i>Parasitic dependence: </i>Mussels rely on fish as hosts for their glochidia to survive and develop.</span></div></div></div></div><div><div style="background-color: white;"><div><div><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div></div></div></div><div><div style="background-color: white;"><div><div><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed; font-size: medium;"><i>Temporary attachment:</i> Glochidia latch onto the fish's gills, fins, or other external body parts for a few weeks. This attachment is relatively harmless to the fish.</span></div></div></div></div><div><div style="background-color: white;"><div><div><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div></div></div></div><div><div style="background-color: white;"><div><div><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed; font-size: medium;"><i>Nutritional source: </i>During this period, the glochidia obtain nutrients not directly from the fish but rather from the surrounding water.</span></div></div></div></div><div><div style="background-color: white;"><div><div><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div></div></div></div><div><div style="background-color: white;"><div><div><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed; font-size: medium;">This unique adaptation is crucial for freshwater mussels as it ensures the dispersal of their offspring. After several weeks, the glochidia transform into juvenile mussels and detach from the fish, settling at the bottom of the waterway to mature into adults.” </span></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><div style="background-color: white;"><div><div><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia;"><b><span style="font-size: medium;">ChatGPT: </span></b></span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span></div></div></div></div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><div><div style="background-color: white;"><div><div><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed; font-size: medium;">“Freshwater mussel larvae, known as glochidia, do attach to fish, but their method of feeding and interaction with their host fish is a bit more nuanced than simply feeding on tissues and blood. When glochidia are released into the water by the adult female mussel, they must attach to the gills, fins, or body of a suitable host fish to complete their development. This parasitic stage is crucial for the lifecycle of freshwater mussels.</span></div></div></div></div><div><div style="background-color: white;"><div><div><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div></div></div></div><div><div style="background-color: white;"><div><div><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed; font-size: medium;">During this stage, the glochidia encyst on the host fish's surfaces and undergo transformation into juvenile mussels. While encysted, they may derive nutrition from the fish, but rather than actively feeding on the fish's tissues and blood, they are thought to absorb nutrients directly through their tissues, benefiting from the fish's circulatory system indirectly. The interaction is generally not harmful to the fish, and most fish hosts recover without significant harm once the larvae detach and complete their metamorphosis into juvenile mussels.”</span></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><div style="background-color: white;"><div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Interesting difference. In this case, ChatGPT is a lot closer to the nuances and subtleties of reality. (And I would say that Gemini just gets it wrong.) </span></div></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><h2 style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">SearchResearch Lessons </span></h2><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Over all of the past few posts, several lessons have become clear.. </span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><i><b><span style="color: #990000;">1. Get the most precise term you can find. </span></b></i>Learning the speciality (and precise) terms "mimicry" and "glochidia" get you to the best results fast. When they're available for your research, learn and use them. (Such as, <i>phoresy.</i>)</span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><b><i><span style="color: #990000;">2. Pay attention as you read--you'll pick up important concepts and terminology.</span></i></b> As we read through the SERP results, we often found words and ideas that we could use to zero in on what we were really looking for! </span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><b><i><span style="color: #990000;">3. Remember: Sometimes simple questions have complicated answers. </span></i></b> It seems like an obvious question--do mussel larvae parasitize their host fish? But the answer is nuanced... yes... but! </span></div><div><b style="font-family: georgia; font-size: large;"><i><span style="color: #990000;"><br class="Apple-interchange-newline" />4. Caution when asking LLMs... they might really get it wrong, or at least not-nuanced. </span></i></b><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: large;"></span></div><div><b style="font-family: georgia; font-size: large;"><i><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></i></b></div><div><b style="font-family: georgia; font-size: large;"><i><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></i></b></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">I hope you've enjoyed this little excursion into the sometimes startling world of mussels and mimicry behavior. I certainly did! (And I'm grateful I don't have a <i>glochidia infection!</i>) </span></div><div><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;">Keep searching. </span></span></div><div style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span></div><div style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span></div><div style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span></div><div style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;">-------- </span></span></div><div style="color: #222222;"><span><span><span style="font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: large;">“</span><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;"><a href="https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10231222/" target="_blank">Plasticity, Paralogy, and Pseudogenization: Rhabdoviruses of Freshwater Mussels Elucidate Mechanisms of Viral Genome Diversification and the Evolution of the Finfish-Infecting Rhabdoviral Genera</a>” Goldberg, T. L., Blevins, E., Leis, E. M., Standish, I. F., Richard, J. C., Lueder, M. R., ... & Bishop-Lilly, K. A. (2023). Journal of Virology, 97(5), e00196-23.</span></span></span></div><div style="color: #222222;"><span><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;"><br /></span></span></div><div style="color: #222222;"><span><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;">"<a href="https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/full/10.1899/07-093.1" target="_blank">Adaptations to host infection and larval parasitism in Unionoida.</a>" <span style="color: #222222;">Barnhart, M. Christopher, Wendell R. Haag, and William N. Roston. Journal of the North American Benthological Society 27.2 (2008): 370-394. <a href="https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/full/10.1899/07-093.1">https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/full/10.1899/07-093.1</a></span></span></span></div><div style="color: #222222;"><span><span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Roboto Condensed;"><br /></span></span></span></div><div><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;"><span><span><span style="color: #222222;">"<a href="https://www.mdpi.com/2673-9917/2/1/3" target="_blank">Glochidia Infection of Endemic Fishes from Lake Prespa, N. Macedonia</a>" </span></span></span><span style="color: #222222;">Blazhekovikj-Dimovska, D., Stojanovski, S., Taskinen, J., Smiljkov, S., & Rimcheska, B. (2022).</span><span style="color: #222222;"> Hydrobiology, 2(1), 36-43</span></span></div><div><span style="color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;"><br /></span></span></div><div><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;"><span style="color: #222222;">"<a href="https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/C6AD2F8CAFE85F9053514D2FC38D36B2/S0031182022001226a.pdf/div-class-title-effects-of-parasitic-freshwater-mussels-on-their-host-fishes-a-review-div.pdf" target="_blank">Effects of parasitic freshwater mussels on their host fishes: a review</a>." </span><span style="color: #222222;">Rock, Sebastian L., et al. Parasitology 149.14 (2022): 1958-1975. </span></span></div><div><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;"><span style="color: #222222;"><br /></span></span></div><div><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;"><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEj72JVM58VHtHJ8hyphenhyphenc47lOeec9XXa2R7BrObPVsrGpUVJbGc89ixn2Wyl9qI0JFxfwLArfPR2TSV2kBWAuMSINZAWCDMDkL9qwpGjvgc-9zanekZtoilU0xuWMdWPjUeyLm4UPzR-_qlLsrvGaotz7JBTqA-RM8-1Qb3qFC_9eKo1OfqKqKIUDqUyAXUsc/s4032/Mussels%20on%20beach.HEIC" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="4032" data-original-width="3024" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEj72JVM58VHtHJ8hyphenhyphenc47lOeec9XXa2R7BrObPVsrGpUVJbGc89ixn2Wyl9qI0JFxfwLArfPR2TSV2kBWAuMSINZAWCDMDkL9qwpGjvgc-9zanekZtoilU0xuWMdWPjUeyLm4UPzR-_qlLsrvGaotz7JBTqA-RM8-1Qb3qFC_9eKo1OfqKqKIUDqUyAXUsc/w480-h640/Mussels%20on%20beach.HEIC" width="480" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">Mussels on the beach in northern California (P/C Dan)</td></tr></tbody></table><br /><span style="color: #222222;"><br /></span></span></div></div></div>Dan Russellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13603209997260423532noreply@blogger.com6tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4953008377950396317.post-90949377088457855912024-03-11T11:49:00.000-07:002024-03-12T08:51:02.033-07:00Part 3: (3/11/24) How do animals fake each other out, and why? <p> <i style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia;"><b><span style="font-size: x-large;"><span style="color: #783f04;">Now we know a couple of things...</span> </span></b></i></p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1019" data-original-width="645" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEha0kd_f4HCjuFilVvzRL8MOZJ6a4fD9EZpmAPzwHlsqWkW7YUE9OYI7miO7i_a_z6zI7p6u1UN7kCd-ENsO39SMajYhC13IHnrl56GYVXtc8cXGBKYwM3dZZIJ6Yzv3C2HA8NEQtPAnxVS3SDWsg6_ef4iOkYNxfxNgFb2MHk4YFixzWDDReJpWQb_SC8/w406-h640/mussels.png" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; border: 1px solid rgb(238, 238, 238); box-shadow: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.1) 1px 1px 5px; margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto; padding: 5px; position: relative;" width="406" /></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">California mussel (<i>Mytilus californianus</i>) </td></tr></tbody></table><div class="separator" style="background-color: white; clear: both; color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13.2px; text-align: center;"><a data-abc="true" href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEha0kd_f4HCjuFilVvzRL8MOZJ6a4fD9EZpmAPzwHlsqWkW7YUE9OYI7miO7i_a_z6zI7p6u1UN7kCd-ENsO39SMajYhC13IHnrl56GYVXtc8cXGBKYwM3dZZIJ6Yzv3C2HA8NEQtPAnxVS3SDWsg6_ef4iOkYNxfxNgFb2MHk4YFixzWDDReJpWQb_SC8/s1019/mussels.png" style="color: #1119cc; margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em; text-decoration-line: none;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"></span></a></div><div style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13.2px;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><br /></span></div><span style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;">.</span><span style="font-size: medium;">.. including that some </span></span><span style="font-size: medium;"><span style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: georgia;">freshwater mussels,<i> such as </i></span><span face="Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif" style="color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><i>Lampsilis reeveiana, </i>release a huge cloud of </span></span><span face="Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif" style="color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia;">mussel larvae (<a data-abc="true" href="https://youtu.be/I0YTBj0WHkU?si=eZ-vxj7lbsjWvCWe&t=91" style="color: #1119cc; text-decoration-line: none;" target="_blank">video</a>), known as <i><a data-abc="true" href="https://www.google.com/search?q=define+glochidia&oq=define+glochidia&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIKCAEQABgPGBYYHjINCAIQABiGAxiABBiKBTINCAMQABiGAxiABBiKBTINCAQQABiGAxiABBiKBdIBCDE0NTRqMGo3qAIAsAIA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8" style="color: #1119cc; text-decoration-line: none;" target="_blank">glochidia</a> </i>when a fish tries to eat the fake fish lure. </span></span></span><div><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;">The fake fish lure is pretty amazing: </span><br /><br /></span></div><div><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhRlj0-CrAOnZD9kxuTq39DmFeDBEEKlhROnF-hXtN21-cgoBObIxVkm-gyQo3H4LrRWe_ayszT7ziQMrcHb52thcclXkOZQiD2qHnwFT2VS2MhtdjgP7jey-w4akfkSD4S9oJULja9LtlKLxVPvfGFADGcLrZMwNKj2kUqkgvVkOcY5RyluCuShQ-hpD8/s940/fake%20fish.png" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="542" data-original-width="940" height="185" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhRlj0-CrAOnZD9kxuTq39DmFeDBEEKlhROnF-hXtN21-cgoBObIxVkm-gyQo3H4LrRWe_ayszT7ziQMrcHb52thcclXkOZQiD2qHnwFT2VS2MhtdjgP7jey-w4akfkSD4S9oJULja9LtlKLxVPvfGFADGcLrZMwNKj2kUqkgvVkOcY5RyluCuShQ-hpD8/s320/fake%20fish.png" width="320" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">Not a fish, but the exterior part of a mussel that looks <br />and moves just like a tiny <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiner_(fish)" target="_blank">shiner</a> fish.</td></tr></tbody></table><div><div style="background-color: white;"><div style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13.2px;"><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span></div><div style="color: #222222;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><span face="Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif" style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="font-family: georgia;">As someone pointed out, that's a pretty amazing bit of mimicry for an animal that can't see--but of course, the ability to see doesn't matter in an evolutionary context. It's not like the eyes are connected to the mantle tissue that</span></span><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"> extends outside of its shell, so whether or not it can see isn't material to the mimicry. </span></span></span></div><div style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span></span></div><div style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><span style="color: #990000; font-family: georgia;"><b>2. In addition to a fake fish lure, there are OTHER mimic devices that freshwater mussels use. Can you find them as well? </b>(Think beyond a minnow sitting on top of the mussel shell.)</span><span style="font-family: georgia;"> </span></span></span></div><div style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span></span></div><div style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><span style="background-color: transparent; font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;">Now that I know that "mimicry" is the preferred term of art, my next query was: </span></span></div><div style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><span style="background-color: transparent; font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span></div><div><b><span style="font-family: arial; font-size: medium;"><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="color: #222222;"> [ </span></span><span style="background-color: transparent; color: #222222;">mussel mimicry -Lampsilis </span><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="color: #222222;">] </span></span></span></b></div><div style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><span style="background-color: transparent; font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span></div><div><span style="font-size: medium;"><span style="background-color: transparent; color: #222222; font-family: georgia;"> Why the -Lampsilis in the query? Because I wanted to find OTHER mechanisms than what Lampsilis would use. I already know that they use a fake fish lure--but what would other mussels do to attract fish to their </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia;">glochidia? </span></span></div><div><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Sure enough, the very first hit was to a <a href="https://www.nwf.org/Magazines/National-Wildlife/2013/OctNov/Animals/Mussels" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">National Wildlife Federation page about other kinds of mussel lures</a>. Here I learned about snuffbox mussel and riffleshell mussel, both of which trap curious fish with a snap of their shells and while holding them tight, douse them with a cloud of tiny glochidia! That's pretty aggressive action by a otherwise quiet mussel! <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1YcaIN8cRs" target="_blank">You can see the snuffbox mussel</a> (<i>Epioblasma triquetra</i>) grabbing a logperch fish by the nose and holding on for a few seconds, blowing glochidia into its mouth and over the gills. </span></div><div><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><iframe allowfullscreen="" class="BLOG_video_class" height="266" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/-1YcaIN8cRs" width="320" youtube-src-id="-1YcaIN8cRs"></iframe></span></div><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia;"><br />Here's a still frame from that video, the mussel holding the logperch quite firmly: </span></span></div><div><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"> </span></div><div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEi1oevI6VOpSpaKoOFByLRFZsb8_tZFDHzEFk3BRo4r651BSi0mMOommw-x90tk13OceOvWANoj8yFz-Sobd2C3GOh5QEMCzVcx57UUrYGm8tdKE7cjDrdS_S6TxDytUzFvgHPJW0iUM6C5BpCMv7nr47dZ9q4vkyy55FDTfabeZYBBDY5K83koE0cWzX4/s840/snuffbox%20mussel.png" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><img border="0" data-original-height="424" data-original-width="840" height="203" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEi1oevI6VOpSpaKoOFByLRFZsb8_tZFDHzEFk3BRo4r651BSi0mMOommw-x90tk13OceOvWANoj8yFz-Sobd2C3GOh5QEMCzVcx57UUrYGm8tdKE7cjDrdS_S6TxDytUzFvgHPJW0iUM6C5BpCMv7nr47dZ9q4vkyy55FDTfabeZYBBDY5K83koE0cWzX4/w400-h203/snuffbox%20mussel.png" width="400" /></span></a></div><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia;">What's more, the edge of the mussel shell has <i>denticles</i> (little teeth-like serrations) that help it hold onto the fish snout. In this mussel, a part of the mantle inflates to form a gasket-like seal around the head of the captured fish, reducing the leakage of glochidia. </span></span></div><div><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">And one more <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2x8ts5STzY" target="_blank">video of mussel mimicry</a> and fish capture behavior, just because it's so wonderful: </span></div><div><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><iframe allowfullscreen="" class="BLOG_video_class" height="266" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/V2x8ts5STzY" width="320" youtube-src-id="V2x8ts5STzY"></iframe></span></div><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia;"><br /></span></span></div><div><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">But wait.. there's more! </span></div><div><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">While reading, I was impressed when I read this sentence: "Many species of [mussels such as] <i>Pleurobemini</i> and some <i>Lampsilini</i> release conglutinates of eggs and larvae that resemble host food items." </span></div><div style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span></div><div style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;">That's a big tipoff: a <i>conglutinate </i>that resembles host food items? What's that? </span></span></div><div style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span></div><div style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;">My next query was: </span></span></div><div style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span></div><div style="color: #222222;"><b><span style="font-family: arial; font-size: medium;"> [ mussel conglutinate mimicry ] </span></b></div><div style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span></div><div><span style="font-size: medium;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia;">and I quickly learned that "t</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia;">he mantle lures and <i>conglutinates</i> of various mussel species can mimic fish, a wide variety of aquatic insects, crayfish, snails, leeches, worms, and other prey of their fish hosts.." </span></span></div><div><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Looking at the Images tab shows us some of the various forms of the conglutinates (which I learned are bits of mucus-like stuff that stick together with glochidia. Again, through the power of evolution, these conglutinates look an awful lot like tasty fish food. </span></div><div><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia;"><br /></span></div><div><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgZQM9Nbmads3RlkD75D4EafOvmZWL7VyXoBjRcXMEZo_EPw9huXURpSc7fEgqLwrP2W7ilVAJz1n1oEiIqZC7LGL3uzpFWQjgsdGsvvZtXZ8fIm9idJCCeeZX4NRGA5OZ9mIE6YaCylFfcjLYWTc5RGiJBj1SSjMVroQvozP0UdHqdL_FxoKKDL_vggYo/s1106/conglutinates.png" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="510" data-original-width="1106" height="296" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgZQM9Nbmads3RlkD75D4EafOvmZWL7VyXoBjRcXMEZo_EPw9huXURpSc7fEgqLwrP2W7ilVAJz1n1oEiIqZC7LGL3uzpFWQjgsdGsvvZtXZ8fIm9idJCCeeZX4NRGA5OZ9mIE6YaCylFfcjLYWTc5RGiJBj1SSjMVroQvozP0UdHqdL_FxoKKDL_vggYo/w640-h296/conglutinates.png" width="640" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">Thumbnails of different mussel conglutinates. Some look like worms, insect larvae, <br />others like fish, while others like shrimp or packets of eggs. </td></tr></tbody></table><br /><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">This is a closeup of the conglutinate in the lower left: </span></div><div><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhxC0bR-xkb6qFVU0b1FTGBDiTMsonD-IWmu0IxheNhRGyvNQMR4Pkcaru_NS0IZW7lHfM6XeWYGVlMq7l6BlW8yvALCaoZVOcgxDI4F7RuFK8BN9UuQsME4kJ7zrFpgc-nJ8fsn_o8pXViNYGkRL7JtQ8Mw7EI-LnrPoDVnOydnsmPXC5mt-p_SE8dsZs/s1283/closeup%20of%20conglutinate.png" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><img border="0" data-original-height="708" data-original-width="1283" height="354" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhxC0bR-xkb6qFVU0b1FTGBDiTMsonD-IWmu0IxheNhRGyvNQMR4Pkcaru_NS0IZW7lHfM6XeWYGVlMq7l6BlW8yvALCaoZVOcgxDI4F7RuFK8BN9UuQsME4kJ7zrFpgc-nJ8fsn_o8pXViNYGkRL7JtQ8Mw7EI-LnrPoDVnOydnsmPXC5mt-p_SE8dsZs/w640-h354/closeup%20of%20conglutinate.png" width="640" /></span></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><span style="font-size: medium;">Looks like a watercolor painting, but is actually the conglutinate of <br /><i>Ptychobranchus subtentum</i>, which strongly resembles pupae of the blackfly. </span></td></tr></tbody></table><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /></span><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Or, for a better image of the entire conglutinate mass, here's an image from the US Fish and Wildlife Service showing how they all stick together: </span></div><div><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjghBicKVnQ0bFeTQXq3fD-IuH1ADRdbtGr3nZ3dYkYhLj1HkbLGIk8QF250Hg0qfVRanJ4eou70Xmn5_qiDeWn2N5HtzDKnpdkuyb0PfiBDRiLCvSnTJZfviC-3hE2yw9xAfQNRslAMSpSCkI4QFkCC4kwf7RGk7fnuv3ElSoI43FvE1dV4dHFM6ZSUos/s1920/3-conglutinates-containing-mussel-larvae-being-released-out-of-mussel-gill-credit-rachel-mair.jpeg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1440" data-original-width="1920" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjghBicKVnQ0bFeTQXq3fD-IuH1ADRdbtGr3nZ3dYkYhLj1HkbLGIk8QF250Hg0qfVRanJ4eou70Xmn5_qiDeWn2N5HtzDKnpdkuyb0PfiBDRiLCvSnTJZfviC-3hE2yw9xAfQNRslAMSpSCkI4QFkCC4kwf7RGk7fnuv3ElSoI43FvE1dV4dHFM6ZSUos/w640-h480/3-conglutinates-containing-mussel-larvae-being-released-out-of-mussel-gill-credit-rachel-mair.jpeg" width="640" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">Mussel conglutinate with mimicry of blackfly pupae. P/C Rachel Mair @ FWS.</td></tr></tbody></table><br /><span style="font-size: medium;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia;"><br /></span></span></div><div style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;"> Once again, we see the importance of knowing the right terms. Last time we learned about "mimicry" as a technical term that will improve the accuracy of your searches. This time we found that removing <i>Lampsilis</i> as a term would let us see even more results. And we found "conglutinates" as just the right words to let us find even more amazing mimicry behavior. </span></span></div><div style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span></div><div style="color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">For our third special-edition SRS Challenge of the week, we turn our attention to the point of all this fakery--the <i>glochidia</i>. </span></div><div style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span></div><div style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><div><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="color: #990000; font-family: georgia;"><b><span style="font-size: medium;">3. The point of all this mussel-bound fakery is to get the glochidia into the gills of fish. Are the glochidia actually parasites? Or are they just hitching a ride on the fish's gills? </span></b></span></span></div><div><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span></span></div></div><div style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;">Let us know what you find out. </span></span></div><div style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span></div><div style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;">Keep searching. </span></span></div></div></div></div>Dan Russellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13603209997260423532noreply@blogger.com6tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4953008377950396317.post-53286250406234584542024-03-08T14:22:00.000-08:002024-03-08T14:22:09.099-08:00Part 2: (3/8/24): How do animals fake each other out, and why?<p> <i style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: x-large;"><b><span style="color: #783f04;">Mussels are more than you might think...</span> </b></i></p><div class="separator" style="background-color: white; clear: both; color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13.2px; text-align: center;"><a data-abc="true" href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEha0kd_f4HCjuFilVvzRL8MOZJ6a4fD9EZpmAPzwHlsqWkW7YUE9OYI7miO7i_a_z6zI7p6u1UN7kCd-ENsO39SMajYhC13IHnrl56GYVXtc8cXGBKYwM3dZZIJ6Yzv3C2HA8NEQtPAnxVS3SDWsg6_ef4iOkYNxfxNgFb2MHk4YFixzWDDReJpWQb_SC8/s1019/mussels.png" imageanchor="1" style="color: #1119cc; margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em; text-decoration-line: none;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1019" data-original-width="645" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEha0kd_f4HCjuFilVvzRL8MOZJ6a4fD9EZpmAPzwHlsqWkW7YUE9OYI7miO7i_a_z6zI7p6u1UN7kCd-ENsO39SMajYhC13IHnrl56GYVXtc8cXGBKYwM3dZZIJ6Yzv3C2HA8NEQtPAnxVS3SDWsg6_ef4iOkYNxfxNgFb2MHk4YFixzWDDReJpWQb_SC8/w406-h640/mussels.png" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; border: 1px solid rgb(238, 238, 238); box-shadow: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.1) 1px 1px 5px; padding: 5px; position: relative;" width="406" /></span></a></div><div style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13.2px;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><br /></span></div><span style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;">... in Wednesday's Challenge I asked: </span></span><div><span style="font-size: medium;"><span style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: georgia;"></span></span><div style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;"> </span></span></div><div style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span></div><div style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><b><span style="color: #990000; font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;">1. Given that mussels are fairly quiet and <a data-abc="true" href="https://www.google.com/search?q=define+sessile&oq=define+sessile&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyCQgAEEUYORiABDIHCAEQABiABDIHCAIQABiABDIHCAMQABiABDIHCAQQABiABDIICAUQABgWGB4yCAgGEAAYFhgeMggIBxAAGBYYHjIICAgQABgWGB4yCAgJEAAYFhge0gEIMzM4MmowajeoAgCwAgA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8" style="color: #1119cc; text-decoration-line: none;" target="_blank">sessile</a> creatures, do they ever try to do some kind of fakery in their appearance? If so, why? </span></span></b></div><div style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span></div><div style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">When you think about animals doing <i>fakery</i>, the word that should spring to mind is (as SRS Regular Reader Krossbow pointed out) is <b>mimicry</b>. </span></div><div style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">It's true that mussels are stationary for most of their lives, but they're not static. They can open their shells and <i>do stuff</i>. Plus, they've been <a href="https://evolution.berkeley.edu/evo-news/musseling-in-on-evolution/" target="_blank">evolving for around 500 megayears</a> and are capable of quite rapid evolutions! </span></div><div style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">My first query was: </span></div><div style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><b><span style="font-family: arial; font-size: medium;"> [ mussels mimicry ] </span></b></div><div style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">which quickly led me to find this result from <a href="https://ca.pbslearningmedia.org/resource/nat16.sci.lisci.mussel/selection-deception-and-reproduction-mimicry-in-freshwater-mussels/" target="_blank">PBS (the Nature series)</a>: </span></div><div style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">For example, females in the mussel genus Lampsilis have an extension of the mantle tissue that strikingly resembles a small fish. The mussel displays this tissue outside its shell between the valves and twitches it repetitively to attract its predaceous fish host – like a fishing lure.</span></div><div style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Be sure to check out their <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0YTBj0WHkU" target="_blank">video</a> (especially at :52) <br /><br /></span></div><div style="background-color: white;"><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><iframe allowfullscreen="" class="BLOG_video_class" height="266" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/I0YTBj0WHkU" width="320" youtube-src-id="I0YTBj0WHkU"></iframe></span></div><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia;">That's a wonderful example of mimicry which you can also see in <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJwESWo0HCQ" target="_blank"><br />this video</a> with a slightly different camera angle: </span></span></div><div style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><iframe allowfullscreen="" class="BLOG_video_class" height="266" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/vJwESWo0HCQ" width="320" youtube-src-id="vJwESWo0HCQ"></iframe></span></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div></div><div style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia;">This is one of those cases when knowing just the right word works really well. In this case, knowing the vocabulary word <i>mimicry</i> makes a huge difference. This particular freshwater mussel, </span><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia;"><i>Lampsilis reeveiana, </i>releases a huge cloud of </span></span><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia;">mussel larvae (<a href="https://youtu.be/I0YTBj0WHkU?si=eZ-vxj7lbsjWvCWe&t=91" target="_blank">video</a>), known as <i><a href="https://www.google.com/search?q=define+glochidia&oq=define+glochidia&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIKCAEQABgPGBYYHjINCAIQABiGAxiABBiKBTINCAMQABiGAxiABBiKBTINCAQQABiGAxiABBiKBdIBCDE0NTRqMGo3qAIAsAIA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8" target="_blank">glochidia</a>, </i>some of which then attach themselves to the gills of fish that dares to try and eat the fake fish lure. (<a href="https://youtu.be/I0YTBj0WHkU?si=7PcRlgTb_Fr9yFvD&t=102" target="_blank">See the <i>glochidia </i>attach themselves to fish gills in this video</a>.) </span></span></span></div><div style="background-color: white;"><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span></div><div style="background-color: white;"><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">But that's not all... There's much more to discover, and that's the second part of this 3-part Challenge.... </span></span></div><div style="background-color: white;"><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span></div><div style="background-color: white;"><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><span style="color: #990000; font-family: georgia;"><b>2. In addition to a fake fish lure, there are OTHER mimic devices that freshwater mussels use. Can you find them as well? </b>(Think beyond a minnow sitting on top of the mussel shell.)</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia;"> </span></span></span></div><div style="background-color: white;"><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span></div><div style="background-color: white;"><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">As always, let us know what you find and what you did to find it! </span></span></div><div style="background-color: white;"><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span></div><div style="background-color: white;"><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">(<i>Warning</i>: These next couple of mimicry mechanisms are wild!) </span></span></div><div style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span></div><div style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;"> </span></span></div><div style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span></div><div style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;">Keep searching. </span></span></div></div>Dan Russellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13603209997260423532noreply@blogger.com4tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4953008377950396317.post-69884955608018262752024-03-06T15:16:00.000-08:002024-03-06T15:16:49.985-08:00SearchResearch Challenge (3/6/24): How do animals fake each other out, and why?<p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: x-large;"><i><b><span style="color: #783f04;">While strolling on a Northern California beach one day...</span> </b></i></span></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEha0kd_f4HCjuFilVvzRL8MOZJ6a4fD9EZpmAPzwHlsqWkW7YUE9OYI7miO7i_a_z6zI7p6u1UN7kCd-ENsO39SMajYhC13IHnrl56GYVXtc8cXGBKYwM3dZZIJ6Yzv3C2HA8NEQtPAnxVS3SDWsg6_ef4iOkYNxfxNgFb2MHk4YFixzWDDReJpWQb_SC8/s1019/mussels.png" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1019" data-original-width="645" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEha0kd_f4HCjuFilVvzRL8MOZJ6a4fD9EZpmAPzwHlsqWkW7YUE9OYI7miO7i_a_z6zI7p6u1UN7kCd-ENsO39SMajYhC13IHnrl56GYVXtc8cXGBKYwM3dZZIJ6Yzv3C2HA8NEQtPAnxVS3SDWsg6_ef4iOkYNxfxNgFb2MHk4YFixzWDDReJpWQb_SC8/w406-h640/mussels.png" width="406" /></span></a></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia;"><br /></span></div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">... I spied a large colony of mussels. (See above.) The mussels in the top pic are around 1 inch across (2.5 cm), but they vary widely in size (see bottom pic). </span><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">By <i>mussel </i>I mean bivalves of the marine family <i>Mytilidae</i>, most of which live on exposed shores in the intertidal zone, attached to rocks and stable platforms by means of their strong byssal threads (which are, by the way, incredibly strong). </span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Interestingly, marine mussels have a wide range of predators--they're eaten by humans, starfish, seabirds, dog whelks. Likewise, freshwater mussels are eaten by muskrats, otters, raccoons, ducks, baboons, humans (again), and geese.</span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">For an animal that's been around for nearly 500 million years (early precursor bivalves evolved during the middle of the Cambrian era, around 100 million years before <i>trees</i> evolved on land!), they seem pretty static. I mean, look at them--they just hang around and filter feed for most of their life. </span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">As I was standing in the tidepools looking at them I couldn't help but wonder if such a long-lived creature had something else up its behavioral sleeve. </span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">We know that many creatures go to great lengths to create fake displays. Here's one that I saw while scuba diving--the fabled frogfish, which looks and acts a lot like a sponge, until a small fishy swims too close to its mouth, and then learns the hard way that it's not a sponge! </span></div><div><br /></div><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEg6vI0HR1yPktaL6-gdAxuRFnxPspI-uBzBSvvmLyo0W8xzJ-D8VGKN2oN8CIFfXQ3Sx6PmRiDF2_dEI_3qbLd1QE-UOMbNs1sUkDIZ9msbsyyGCJ2xr1a6imvbox3lcoOIq5asb5ss26mn6lJtWUA0MzdUILfVqfnZ4aZlqq6195yv5enGYyaH8iIwGiA/s707/frogfish.png" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="660" data-original-width="707" height="598" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEg6vI0HR1yPktaL6-gdAxuRFnxPspI-uBzBSvvmLyo0W8xzJ-D8VGKN2oN8CIFfXQ3Sx6PmRiDF2_dEI_3qbLd1QE-UOMbNs1sUkDIZ9msbsyyGCJ2xr1a6imvbox3lcoOIq5asb5ss26mn6lJtWUA0MzdUILfVqfnZ4aZlqq6195yv5enGYyaH8iIwGiA/w640-h598/frogfish.png" width="640" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">Frogfish in Bonaire. P/C dive buddy Megaaan. <br />You can see the mouth on the lower left, with the eye right above.</td></tr></tbody></table><br /><div>S<span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">o this brings up our SearchResearch Challenge for this week. </span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">BUT... this is going to be slightly different than normal. I've got 3 SRS Challenges that I'll release one-at-a-time over the next few days. (I'm doing it like this to make a kind of cliff-hanger experience. You'll see why...) </span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Here's the first Challenge: </span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><b><span style="color: #990000; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">1. Given that mussels are fairly quiet and <a href="https://www.google.com/search?q=define+sessile&oq=define+sessile&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyCQgAEEUYORiABDIHCAEQABiABDIHCAIQABiABDIHCAMQABiABDIHCAQQABiABDIICAUQABgWGB4yCAgGEAAYFhgeMggIBxAAGBYYHjIICAgQABgWGB4yCAgJEAAYFhge0gEIMzM4MmowajeoAgCwAgA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8" target="_blank">sessile</a> creatures, do they ever try to do some kind of fakery in their appearance? If so, why? </span></b></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Once you figure that out, I'll post SRS Challenge #2 about mussel fakery. It will all become clear in a bit. </span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Let us know how you found the answer! </span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Keep searching. </span></div><div><br /><p><br /></p></div>Dan Russellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13603209997260423532noreply@blogger.com12tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4953008377950396317.post-27661987503516950472024-02-28T10:06:00.000-08:002024-02-28T10:10:36.371-08:00Answer: Are tree rings nested cones or cylinders?<p> <b style="color: #38761d; font-family: georgia; font-size: x-large;"><i> Simple questions... </i></b></p><div class="date-posts"><div class="post-outer"><div class="post hentry uncustomized-post-template" itemprop="blogPost" itemscope="itemscope" itemtype="http://schema.org/BlogPosting" style="margin: 0px 0px 25px; min-height: 0px; position: relative;"><div class="post-body entry-content" id="post-body-3021767590141671984" itemprop="description articleBody" style="font-size: 13.2px; line-height: 1.4; position: relative; width: 520px;"><p></p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="background: rgb(255, 255, 255); border: 1px solid rgb(238, 238, 238); box-shadow: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.1) 1px 1px 5px; color: #222222; margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto; padding: 5px; position: relative;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a data-abc="true" href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgmBfh32Fy1UMD325MNWGRqDbmdl_MANiNttGykmAqA-8TVw2YrYmxAY4qLbCxpBGLaALAtTJnGMaPdLQMygf_ZMR5gibhC8f7nQDdGZIf8ewaqIebHI7AMKyuO1fNmi1CqjqagpOoZaLFooLquyvxtByYjMwuSkXwiUxrMTS66a9U30PdilE9DTypOfaM/s5184/tree%20from%20below.jpg" style="color: #1119cc; margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto; text-decoration-line: none;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><img border="0" data-original-height="3888" data-original-width="5184" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgmBfh32Fy1UMD325MNWGRqDbmdl_MANiNttGykmAqA-8TVw2YrYmxAY4qLbCxpBGLaALAtTJnGMaPdLQMygf_ZMR5gibhC8f7nQDdGZIf8ewaqIebHI7AMKyuO1fNmi1CqjqagpOoZaLFooLquyvxtByYjMwuSkXwiUxrMTS66a9U30PdilE9DTypOfaM/w640-h480/tree%20from%20below.jpg" style="background: transparent; border: none; box-shadow: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.1) 0px 0px 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative;" width="640" /></span></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="font-size: 10.56px; text-align: center;"><span style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: x-small;">P/C <a data-abc="true" href="https://www.pexels.com/photo/green-leafed-tree-399969/" style="color: #1119cc; text-decoration-line: none;" target="_blank">Sevenstorm</a> (from Pexels.com)</span></td></tr></tbody></table><span style="font-family: georgia;"><br /><span style="font-size: medium;">... can begin from humble circumstances and can lead to deep insights. </span></span></div><div class="post-body entry-content" id="post-body-3021767590141671984" itemprop="description articleBody" style="font-size: 13.2px; line-height: 1.4; position: relative; width: 520px;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span></div><div class="post-body entry-content" id="post-body-3021767590141671984" itemprop="description articleBody" style="line-height: 1.4; position: relative; width: 520px;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: 13.2px;"><span style="font-size: medium;">In this Challenge, I saw the stump of a tree wondered if the number of growth rings near the top of the tree would be the same as the number of rings near the bottom. I counted the rings and found that it was around 25 years old. But then I saw another cross section of the tree, but much narrower and taken from much higher up on the trunk, a bit like this: </span></span><p style="font-size: 13.2px;"></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; font-size: 13.2px; text-align: center;"><a data-abc="true" href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgrqHuzH74VilCkgmroV9z9CRbHbOfVvO4yuDutQkXS1VY9aDX0Nk42ZgZXVpQmARO7O_DIECLVchDR2vTxMtWbDE8THSC2dMoNr12BooNE_QY1zZ9mPNn0VpQiZ1NCAdatS7M4fxxwgFWZ7sSxxOnxDa4H__qKdgFBysrDq7xSNC-4t_YNtG8DeqrKZyI/s1500/tree%20rings.jpg" style="color: #1119cc; margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em; text-decoration-line: none;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1420" data-original-width="1500" height="303" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgrqHuzH74VilCkgmroV9z9CRbHbOfVvO4yuDutQkXS1VY9aDX0Nk42ZgZXVpQmARO7O_DIECLVchDR2vTxMtWbDE8THSC2dMoNr12BooNE_QY1zZ9mPNn0VpQiZ1NCAdatS7M4fxxwgFWZ7sSxxOnxDa4H__qKdgFBysrDq7xSNC-4t_YNtG8DeqrKZyI/s320/tree%20rings.jpg" style="background: rgb(255, 255, 255); border: 1px solid rgb(238, 238, 238); box-shadow: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.1) 1px 1px 5px; padding: 5px; position: relative;" width="320" /></span></a></div><p style="font-size: 13.2px;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></p><p style="font-size: 13.2px;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">THAT made me pause for a moment and wonder--if I could somehow X-ray the tree, how would the rings be arranged on the inside? </span></p><p style="font-size: 13.2px;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">In other words, are number of rings the same at the bottom of the tree as at the top? </span></p><blockquote style="border: none; font-size: 13.2px; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><p><span style="color: #990000; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><b>1. Are the rings in a tree trunk arranged as a <i>cone</i> or as a collection of <i>cylinders</i>? In other words, if you count the rings at the top of the tree, would you see the same number of rings as at the bottom? </b>(If they're stacked cones, you'd expect the number to be different--if they're cylinders, you'd expect them to be the same.) How ARE the tree rings organized inside of the tree trunk? </span></p></blockquote><p><span style="font-family: georgia;">This turns out to be more complicated than it sounds. (See what I mean? Even simple questions about things you see everyday can lead to unanticipated depths.) </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia;">I was thinking of the inside of tree like this: </span></p><p></p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjUIbg33X-peu3R3Pq-CEmCCkoNPmwQuHvIw7wCID9itpf9Jm9xvRZX_4EexlVxlcGI9OYZEnHzMS4sogxRW0U4s4-tT-FaINHCu7QLmfl5xtivaq0TumgDv8ydOa8mZdu5w3RQhBn-RTGo24uxeAGJR2IW-zdtEt2P-7V_T8kCqQUPW1r_FcWcs9b-rSY/s4446/tree1.jpg" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="4446" data-original-width="2280" height="400" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjUIbg33X-peu3R3Pq-CEmCCkoNPmwQuHvIw7wCID9itpf9Jm9xvRZX_4EexlVxlcGI9OYZEnHzMS4sogxRW0U4s4-tT-FaINHCu7QLmfl5xtivaq0TumgDv8ydOa8mZdu5w3RQhBn-RTGo24uxeAGJR2IW-zdtEt2P-7V_T8kCqQUPW1r_FcWcs9b-rSY/w205-h400/tree1.jpg" width="205" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">Dan's sketch of a tree</td></tr></tbody></table><br /><span style="font-family: georgia;">And, if you took a vertical cross-section of the tree, you'd see something like one of these two sketches of the very top of the tree:</span><p></p><p></p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEi5oX5xbeDyrtiJAcHDT1p1qHuFqHqvasTjxBSY23A2i8AkgKkZu6pv1dPTuaG3m7FZUQxnBcYIuvrEtadACLZp0gn4krcJrIaisyurbrJ9E3r-VnYRD5RLDh8eHWoDjVZzp2TEckuQhPqXUEcvkpIq_GGMjUib3Vz99AB__t5pZLqfsQ2Z_pbXY9Uulr4/s2926/tree2.jpg" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="2810" data-original-width="2926" height="307" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEi5oX5xbeDyrtiJAcHDT1p1qHuFqHqvasTjxBSY23A2i8AkgKkZu6pv1dPTuaG3m7FZUQxnBcYIuvrEtadACLZp0gn4krcJrIaisyurbrJ9E3r-VnYRD5RLDh8eHWoDjVZzp2TEckuQhPqXUEcvkpIq_GGMjUib3Vz99AB__t5pZLqfsQ2Z_pbXY9Uulr4/s320/tree2.jpg" width="320" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">Cross section of a tree.</td></tr></tbody></table><br /><span style="font-family: georgia;">The question I had in mind was this: Are the tree growth rings arranged like the one on the left? (Like nesting cones stacked on top of each other.) Or more like the one on the right? (All of the growth rings flow from a single point on top of the tree.) </span><p></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia;">In other words, are the growth rings <i>conical</i> or <i>cylindrical?</i> </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia;">This matters because if you cut the tree at level 1 (see above), the left tree would show only 2 rings, while the right tree would show 3 rings. So... which is it? </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia;">I did various versions of searches like: </span></p><p><b><span style="font-family: arial;"> [ tree growth rings same at top and bottom ] </span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-family: arial;"> [ are the number of tree rings the same at the top and bottom ] </span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-family: arial;"> [ are tree rings arranged in a cone or a cylinder ] </span></b></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia;">These searches all led to Quora pages or Reddit pages, most of which disagreed with each other. Some say the number of rings are constant from bottom to top (like cylinders) while some say the number varies from bottom to top (like stacked cones). </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia;">I asked Bard and ChatGPT this question: </span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;"><b> [ do trees have the same number of growth rings at <br /> the top of the tree as at the bottom of the tree? ] </b></span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia;">ChatGPT: </span></p></div></div></div></div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><div class="date-posts"><div class="post-outer"><div class="post hentry uncustomized-post-template" itemprop="blogPost" itemscope="itemscope" itemtype="http://schema.org/BlogPosting" style="margin: 0px 0px 25px; min-height: 0px; position: relative;"><div class="post-body entry-content" itemprop="description articleBody" style="line-height: 1.4; position: relative; width: 520px;"><p><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;">Yes, trees have the same number of growth rings at the top of the tree as at the bottom. Growth rings, also known as annual rings, are layers of wood produced by the tree's cambium (the layer of growing tissue) each year during its growing season. These rings indicate the age of the tree and can provide information about the environmental conditions during each year of the tree's life.</span></p></div></div></div></div><div class="date-posts"><div class="post-outer"><div class="post hentry uncustomized-post-template" itemprop="blogPost" itemscope="itemscope" itemtype="http://schema.org/BlogPosting" style="margin: 0px 0px 25px; min-height: 0px; position: relative;"><div class="post-body entry-content" itemprop="description articleBody" style="line-height: 1.4; position: relative; width: 520px;"><p><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;">The number of growth rings is consistent throughout the entire height of the tree because the rings represent the growth of the tree in a given year, regardless of the height at which you are examining the tree. Whether you're looking at a cross-section near the base of the tree or a cross-section higher up, you will count the same number of growth rings, assuming the sections are from the same tree and the tree is healthy and growing normally.</span></p></div></div></div></div><div class="date-posts"><div class="post-outer"><div class="post hentry uncustomized-post-template" itemprop="blogPost" itemscope="itemscope" itemtype="http://schema.org/BlogPosting" style="margin: 0px 0px 25px; min-height: 0px; position: relative;"><div class="post-body entry-content" itemprop="description articleBody" style="line-height: 1.4; position: relative; width: 520px;"><p><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;">The uniformity of growth rings throughout the tree is a result of the tree's growth process, which occurs outward from the cambium layer, encircling the entire trunk and branches. This process ensures that each year's growth is recorded as a ring around the entire circumference of the tree.</span></p></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class="date-posts"><div class="post-outer"><div class="post hentry uncustomized-post-template" itemprop="blogPost" itemscope="itemscope" itemtype="http://schema.org/BlogPosting" style="margin: 0px 0px 25px; min-height: 0px; position: relative;"><div class="post-body entry-content" itemprop="description articleBody" style="line-height: 1.4; position: relative; width: 520px;"><p><span style="font-family: georgia;">Gemini/Bard: </span></p></div></div></div></div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><div class="date-posts"><div class="post-outer"><div class="post hentry uncustomized-post-template" itemprop="blogPost" itemscope="itemscope" itemtype="http://schema.org/BlogPosting" style="margin: 0px 0px 25px; min-height: 0px; position: relative;"><div class="post-body entry-content" itemprop="description articleBody" style="line-height: 1.4; position: relative; width: 520px;"><p><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;">Yes, trees generally have the same number of growth rings at the top as at the bottom of the tree. This is because new growth occurs at the tips of the branches and the main stem, and this new growth adds a new ring to the entire tree, from the top to the bottom. </span></p></div></div></div></div><div class="date-posts"><div class="post-outer"><div class="post hentry uncustomized-post-template" itemprop="blogPost" itemscope="itemscope" itemtype="http://schema.org/BlogPosting" style="margin: 0px 0px 25px; min-height: 0px; position: relative;"><div class="post-body entry-content" itemprop="description articleBody" style="line-height: 1.4; position: relative; width: 520px;"><p><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;">Imagine the tree trunk as a long, thin cylinder. As the tree grows taller, the cylinder gets longer, but its overall width stays the same. The growth rings are like the layers of paint on the cylinder, and each new layer is added on top of the previous ones, all the way from the top to the bottom.</span></p></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class="date-posts"><div class="post-outer"><div class="post hentry uncustomized-post-template" itemprop="blogPost" itemscope="itemscope" itemtype="http://schema.org/BlogPosting" style="margin: 0px 0px 25px; min-height: 0px; position: relative;"><div class="post-body entry-content" itemprop="description articleBody" style="line-height: 1.4; position: relative; width: 520px;"><p><span style="font-family: georgia;">Aside from telling me that trees don't taper as they get taller (really, Gemini?), interestingly, and oddly, the Gen-AI answer feature in Google gave a <i style="font-weight: bold;">different</i> answer in the SERP than regular Gemini! (See below. The SERP says "no," but Gemini says "yes." What's up with that?) </span></p><br /><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgIvecwI3lvPFDFoyfO3f4lNPoktM_CEHez_JcfPL_aWIbtZ612EwywFTA8upfsKUaM5SOt5bQC8ubBWeTY0IpSZ7KFZ7FMWizfnbJrXjdKKXqAcb4Rlit2o2DL7AaUHAgIy8VsuQl9cpCWn-8l6pwNICRuPiB67sQk5DAhN0JYUbDs2PFCitDAlCRkrpA/s1806/tree%20serp%201.jpg" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="622" data-original-width="1806" height="220" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgIvecwI3lvPFDFoyfO3f4lNPoktM_CEHez_JcfPL_aWIbtZ612EwywFTA8upfsKUaM5SOt5bQC8ubBWeTY0IpSZ7KFZ7FMWizfnbJrXjdKKXqAcb4Rlit2o2DL7AaUHAgIy8VsuQl9cpCWn-8l6pwNICRuPiB67sQk5DAhN0JYUbDs2PFCitDAlCRkrpA/w640-h220/tree%20serp%201.jpg" width="640" /></a></div><p><span style="font-family: georgia;"><br /></span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia;">Okay... How am I going to get an authoritative answer? </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia;">Rather than asking the LLMs, or believing the conflicting stories in Reddit and Quora, I went to Google Scholar and Google Books. Both have pretty reliable content, most of which is peer-reviewed (or in the case of Books, at least carefully reviewed by an editor and publishing house). </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia;">In Google Books I did: </span></p><p><b><span style="font-family: arial;"> [ tree ring growth same at top of tree as at the bottom ] </span></b></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia;">and found several books of interest, but one in particular stood out. <i>Tree rings: timekeepers of the past.</i> </span><span style="font-family: georgia;">Phipps, R. L., & McGowan, J. (1993). </span><span style="font-family: georgia;">US Department of the Interior, US Geological Survey.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia;">In this book (published by the USGS, a reputable organization) you'll read: </span></p></div></div></div></div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><div class="date-posts"><div class="post-outer"><div class="post hentry uncustomized-post-template" itemprop="blogPost" itemscope="itemscope" itemtype="http://schema.org/BlogPosting" style="margin: 0px 0px 25px; min-height: 0px; position: relative;"><div class="post-body entry-content" itemprop="description articleBody" style="line-height: 1.4; position: relative; width: 520px;"><p><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;">Looking down at a stump top, it may be difficult to visualize how tree rings go together to make a tree. Perhaps this is because a tree is a three-dimensional object and a stump top displays only two dimensions. The idea of three-dimensional growth can be clarified, however, by disregarding for the moment the leaves, branches, roots, and bark, and considering only the wood portion of the tree trunk. At the end of its first summer, after germination from a seed, a tree seedling is composed of one annual growth increment or growth layer. This somewhat cone-shaped increment, a fraction of a centimeter in diameter and only a few centimeters high, will not grow or change dimensions after the year in which it was formed, but will remain the same size and in the same position as long as the tree exists.</span></p></div></div></div></div><div class="date-posts"><div class="post-outer"><div class="post hentry uncustomized-post-template" itemprop="blogPost" itemscope="itemscope" itemtype="http://schema.org/BlogPosting" style="margin: 0px 0px 25px; min-height: 0px; position: relative;"><div class="post-body entry-content" itemprop="description articleBody" style="line-height: 1.4; position: relative; width: 520px;"><p><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;">During the second year, another annual growth increment is formed around and above the first year's increment. At the end of the third year, an increment has been formed around that of the second year, and similar cones of growth are formed in each succeeding year. The growth increment of each year thus increases the diameter and height of the tree trunk. </span></p></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class="date-posts"><div class="post-outer"><div class="post hentry uncustomized-post-template" itemprop="blogPost" itemscope="itemscope" itemtype="http://schema.org/BlogPosting" style="margin: 0px 0px 25px; min-height: 0px; position: relative;"><div class="post-body entry-content" itemprop="description articleBody" style="line-height: 1.4; position: relative; width: 520px;"><p><span style="font-family: georgia;"></span></p></div></div></div></div><div class="date-posts"><div class="post-outer"><div class="post hentry uncustomized-post-template" itemprop="blogPost" itemscope="itemscope" itemtype="http://schema.org/BlogPosting" style="margin: 0px 0px 25px; min-height: 0px; position: relative;"><div class="post-body entry-content" itemprop="description articleBody" style="line-height: 1.4; position: relative; width: 520px;"><p><span style="font-family: georgia;">Most intriguing, it also has this diagram: </span></p><p></p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEi4_lM3CLOpggnZfqH2BmJg1p6YG8PC9hMi2nQBN_So-ZRH9ggHWh1fiJ4jtWfpCTHcB3QTRX5VLxjAycGaDfLo_1s8FGIfH9Eszcb34tCqWQ8R7YugiMJu6R-bL25I-ZN0PFM5vh5oXdwGuklKHRyVHHy2flpVuo0f6kvolFt5m7gYcp4JF_8lRc-ek3M/s1186/tree%20rings%20from%20book.jpg" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1186" data-original-width="1000" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEi4_lM3CLOpggnZfqH2BmJg1p6YG8PC9hMi2nQBN_So-ZRH9ggHWh1fiJ4jtWfpCTHcB3QTRX5VLxjAycGaDfLo_1s8FGIfH9Eszcb34tCqWQ8R7YugiMJu6R-bL25I-ZN0PFM5vh5oXdwGuklKHRyVHHy2flpVuo0f6kvolFt5m7gYcp4JF_8lRc-ek3M/w540-h640/tree%20rings%20from%20book.jpg" width="540" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">Figure from page 7 of "Tree Rings" (1993) </td></tr></tbody></table><br /><span style="font-family: georgia;">Which shows pretty clearly that the correct model of tree rings is that of stacked cones. (And is pretty similar to my hand-drawn sketch above.) </span><p></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia;"><i>But...</i> just to be sure, I wanted a verification check. So, I also did a search in Google Scholar for papers on this topic. There, my search was much shorter and to the point: </span></p><p><b><span style="font-family: arial;"> [ cross-section tree height ] </span></b></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia;">That led me pretty quickly to a technical paper "<a href="https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/14004080500486799?casa_token=S3QpvDaoGIoAAAAA:fwAUCfSUPu-ClTfofcFjUEXoc-wrWwoyreYleTuPAbBknyC0eWZWwKByTc6EP0fxsXPc8Nhs3mo5ig" target="_blank">Two models for predicting the number of annual </a></span><span style="font-family: georgia;"><a href="https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/14004080500486799?casa_token=S3QpvDaoGIoAAAAA:fwAUCfSUPu-ClTfofcFjUEXoc-wrWwoyreYleTuPAbBknyC0eWZWwKByTc6EP0fxsXPc8Nhs3mo5ig" target="_blank">rings in cross-sections of tree stems</a>" published in the </span><span style="font-family: georgia;">Scandinavian Journal of Forest Research (2007). </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia;">I won't bore you with the details (it's a fun paper to read, but you have to be willing to read through the math), but the key insight for me was that one of the key parameters of the model is "<i>Number of annual rings (cambial age) in cross-section at height h</i>", which strongly suggests that the number of tree rings varies by height. (Looking at the data in detail shows that it does.) More support for the idea of "stacked cones" rather than a simple cylinder. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia;"> </span> </p><blockquote style="border: none; font-size: 13.2px; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><p><span style="color: #990000; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><b>2. If tree rings are the fingerprints of a tree, I know that cloned trees can have very different ring patterns, but what about humans? Do identical twin humans have identical fingerprints, or not? </b></span></p></blockquote><p><span style="font-family: georgia;">This was a much simpler Challenge. My query was much like Ramon's: </span></p><p><b><span style="font-family: arial;"> [ identical twins fingerprints ] </span></b></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia;">which quickly leads to two articles from reputable sources. <a href="https://medlineplus.gov/genetics/understanding/traits/fingerprints/#:~:text=Each%20person's%20fingerprints%20are%20unique.%20Even%20identical,have%20the%20same%20DNA%2C%20have%20different%20fingerprints." target="_blank">Medline Plus</a> and <a href="https://www.healthline.com/health/do-identical-twins-have-the-same-fingerprints#chances" target="_blank">Healthline</a> both of which tell us that: </span></p></div></div></div></div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><div class="date-posts"><div class="post-outer"><div class="post hentry uncustomized-post-template" itemprop="blogPost" itemscope="itemscope" itemtype="http://schema.org/BlogPosting" style="margin: 0px 0px 25px; min-height: 0px; position: relative;"><div class="post-body entry-content" itemprop="description articleBody" style="line-height: 1.4; position: relative; width: 520px;"><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;">The finer details of the patterns of skin ridges are influenced by other factors during fetal development, including substances taken during pregnancy and the environment inside the womb. These developmental factors cause each person’s dermatoglyphs to be different from everyone else’s. Even identical twins, who have the same DNA, have different fingerprints.</span></p></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class="date-posts"><div class="post-outer"><div class="post hentry uncustomized-post-template" itemprop="blogPost" itemscope="itemscope" itemtype="http://schema.org/BlogPosting" style="margin: 0px 0px 25px; min-height: 0px; position: relative;"><div class="post-body entry-content" itemprop="description articleBody" style="line-height: 1.4; position: relative; width: 520px;"><p><span style="font-family: georgia;">And there you have it: reputable source and a verification from a second reputable source. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia;"><br /></span></p><h3 style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: georgia;">SearchResearch Lessons</span></h3><p><span style="font-family: georgia;"><b><i><span style="color: #990000;">1. Even simple questions can be difficult to answer. </span></i></b>I guess that's often the case (standard example, "why is the sky blue?" is tricky), but you'd think searching out the answer would be straightforward. As you see, this isn't always the case. Here we had to dig into the Books and Scholar literature to get a decent answer. Which reminds me... </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia;"><i><b><span style="color: #990000;">2. (Once again) Don't trust the LLMs for answers to tough questions.</span></b></i> It's bad enough that both ChatGPT and Gemini/Bard got the answer fundamentally wrong, but the fact that Gemini gives different answers between the SERP and the regular chat interface should give you a clue that something's really weird here. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia;">I'll say it again: <b>Always verify.</b> Always get a second source (and asking another LLM is NOT validating.) </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 13.2px;"><br /></span></p><p style="font-size: 13.2px;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Keep Searching! </span></p></div></div></div></div>Dan Russellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13603209997260423532noreply@blogger.com5tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4953008377950396317.post-30217675901416719842024-02-14T07:08:00.000-08:002024-02-14T07:08:36.420-08:00SearchResearch Challenge (2/14/24): Are tree rings nested cones or cylinders?<p><span style="color: #38761d; font-family: georgia; font-size: x-large;"><b><i> While walking through a forest... </i></b></span></p><p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgmBfh32Fy1UMD325MNWGRqDbmdl_MANiNttGykmAqA-8TVw2YrYmxAY4qLbCxpBGLaALAtTJnGMaPdLQMygf_ZMR5gibhC8f7nQDdGZIf8ewaqIebHI7AMKyuO1fNmi1CqjqagpOoZaLFooLquyvxtByYjMwuSkXwiUxrMTS66a9U30PdilE9DTypOfaM/s5184/tree%20from%20below.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><img border="0" data-original-height="3888" data-original-width="5184" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgmBfh32Fy1UMD325MNWGRqDbmdl_MANiNttGykmAqA-8TVw2YrYmxAY4qLbCxpBGLaALAtTJnGMaPdLQMygf_ZMR5gibhC8f7nQDdGZIf8ewaqIebHI7AMKyuO1fNmi1CqjqagpOoZaLFooLquyvxtByYjMwuSkXwiUxrMTS66a9U30PdilE9DTypOfaM/w640-h480/tree%20from%20below.jpg" width="640" /></span></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><span style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: x-small;">P/C <a href="https://www.pexels.com/photo/green-leafed-tree-399969/" target="_blank">Sevenstorm</a> (from Pexels.com)</span></td></tr></tbody></table><span style="font-family: georgia;"><br /><span style="font-size: medium;">... of very tall trees, I was wondering how old the trees were. Luckily, just around the next bend in the trail there was the stump of a tree. I counted the rings and found that it was around 25 years old. But then I saw another cross section of the tree, but much narrower and taken from much higher up on the trunk, a bit like this: </span></span></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgrqHuzH74VilCkgmroV9z9CRbHbOfVvO4yuDutQkXS1VY9aDX0Nk42ZgZXVpQmARO7O_DIECLVchDR2vTxMtWbDE8THSC2dMoNr12BooNE_QY1zZ9mPNn0VpQiZ1NCAdatS7M4fxxwgFWZ7sSxxOnxDa4H__qKdgFBysrDq7xSNC-4t_YNtG8DeqrKZyI/s1500/tree%20rings.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1420" data-original-width="1500" height="303" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgrqHuzH74VilCkgmroV9z9CRbHbOfVvO4yuDutQkXS1VY9aDX0Nk42ZgZXVpQmARO7O_DIECLVchDR2vTxMtWbDE8THSC2dMoNr12BooNE_QY1zZ9mPNn0VpQiZ1NCAdatS7M4fxxwgFWZ7sSxxOnxDa4H__qKdgFBysrDq7xSNC-4t_YNtG8DeqrKZyI/s320/tree%20rings.jpg" width="320" /></span></a></div><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">THAT started me thinking about markers of growth. As you know, each ring is 1 annual growth cycle. The dark bands are usually made of smaller cells that grow close together when times are tough, while the light bands are larger cells, created when living conditions are much better. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">But is the number of rings the same at the bottom of the tree as at the top? That is... </span></p><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><p><span style="color: #990000; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><b>1. Are the rings in a tree trunk arranged as a <i>cone</i> or as a collection of <i>cylinders</i>? In other words, if you count the rings at the top of the tree, would you see the same number of rings as at the bottom? </b>(If they're stacked cones, you'd expect the number to be different--if they're cylinders, you'd expect them to be the same.) How ARE the tree rings organized inside of the tree trunk? </span></p><p><span style="color: #990000; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><b>2. If tree rings are the fingerprints of a tree, I know that cloned trees can have very different ring patterns, but what about humans? Do identical twin humans have identical fingerprints, or not? </b></span></p></blockquote><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Can you work your SRS magic on these Challenges and let us know? </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">As always, tell us what you found, and how you found it. (And yes, you can use LLMs or anything that floats your boat, including asking your fingerprint specialist detective uncle.) Just be sure to include the details of what you did, including any tools or resources... be they AI or human. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Keep Searching! </span></p><p><br /></p>Dan Russellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13603209997260423532noreply@blogger.com21tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4953008377950396317.post-39785156984218906912024-02-10T17:20:00.000-08:002024-02-10T17:20:15.283-08:00PSA: Do not believe citations created by Gemini (Bard)<p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: x-large;"><i><b> As you probably know, </b></i></span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"></span></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgmh6Phpud-ZJvNQGJWkiSrrsH9kQYw7hOp_82_VhHkKC5g5CTfFtHDJ2nuBW4NYag2ludmb8Xdye9NIZvu6vGVX6VOyYMuv7bCt_kWFPaQeD5ApsFwaX47KVMza0iTdUzWW0J9MABXLa7OPASd_RrQlzI7pnIB-P7zF6P46sIr837bfqr8RTEmN07B1OA/s3356/sparrows.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1246" data-original-width="3356" height="238" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgmh6Phpud-ZJvNQGJWkiSrrsH9kQYw7hOp_82_VhHkKC5g5CTfFtHDJ2nuBW4NYag2ludmb8Xdye9NIZvu6vGVX6VOyYMuv7bCt_kWFPaQeD5ApsFwaX47KVMza0iTdUzWW0J9MABXLa7OPASd_RrQlzI7pnIB-P7zF6P46sIr837bfqr8RTEmN07B1OA/w640-h238/sparrows.jpg" width="640" /></a></span></div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br />... I'm writing a book. That means every day I'm looking things up, checking into the backstory so I can be sure that what I'm writing is accurate, up-to-the-minute, and full of the zesty and intriguing insider information that you've come to expect from SearchResearch. </span><p></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Today I was looking up the difference in behavior between the Eurasian Tree sparrow (<i>Passer montanus</i>) and the ordinary House sparrow (<i>P. domesticus</i>). Oddly, it turns out that even though they're very similar, the Eurasian Tree sparrow has a much smaller range that the House sparrow. (Buy the book when it comes out to learn why <i>anyone</i> might be interested in this strange-but-true fact.) For two very similar birds, the question is obvious: Why? </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">In the process of searching for the answer, </span><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: large;">I thought that I should give Gemini (Bard) a try. So I posed this question to it: </span></p><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0 0 0 40px; padding: 0px;"><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-size: large;"><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;">[ why have house sparrows expanded their range dramatically since being introduced into the US, while Eurasian tree sparrows have not? They're so similar, you'd think they would expand at a similar rate. ] </span></span></p></blockquote><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">And it gave a reasonable answer. At least it looks reasonable. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">So I asked it to give me me a few citations: </span></p><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0 0 0 40px; padding: 0px;"><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed; font-size: medium;">[ can you suggest further reading in the scientific literature about the differences in range expansion?] </span></p></blockquote><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">No surprise, it gave me a set of reasonable looking titles of papers I should read. In fact, these titles look great! I need to read these articles, and what's even better, there are actual links to the articles. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">What could go wrong? Here's what I saw (I added the red Xs): </span></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiKDbnOgqYpR5O-PzSPWd1qZOjqiMJrfox4zMoThRur3o33OBJAYDPX71zhPrNr-N-qpJTc6wL5yKqOIs4NCHl_bHkVTQtgGhyphenhyphenP1fi7U2WkuH5ezI-tO2lVJcKtVG0X5R8HeWsMDkJWuARAxtVKco5zj2X_Cp2gxZRI-csDjVRQ_rFjJcoLo1SI_kihOXQ/s1384/ooops.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1196" data-original-width="1384" height="554" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiKDbnOgqYpR5O-PzSPWd1qZOjqiMJrfox4zMoThRur3o33OBJAYDPX71zhPrNr-N-qpJTc6wL5yKqOIs4NCHl_bHkVTQtgGhyphenhyphenP1fi7U2WkuH5ezI-tO2lVJcKtVG0X5R8HeWsMDkJWuARAxtVKco5zj2X_Cp2gxZRI-csDjVRQ_rFjJcoLo1SI_kihOXQ/w640-h554/ooops.jpg" width="640" /></span></a></div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">To start with, <b><span style="color: red;">NONE</span></b> of those papers actually exist. That's a serious deal-breaker. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Yes, I checked everywhere, but no, I could not find any of these papers in the scholarly literature or even the trash heap. They just don't exist. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">And those links? They go to actual papers, but not the papers cited, and in three cases, the links went to papers that weren't about sparrows at all but about random other topics! </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Which brings up the basic question--if Gemini can't get the citations and links correct, should I really trust the answer it gave to my first question? </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">My answer: <b><span style="color: #660000;"> I'm not going to do so. It seems drunk. </span></b></span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Just for giggles, I gave the same questions to ChatGPT-4. Its answer to the first question was very similar to Gemini's, but to its credit, when I asked for citations, it replied with a hedge, listing places I could go look on my own, but NOT giving any direct citations. At least the journals are real journals. (Yes, there is an journal called <a href="https://www.jstor.org/journal/auk" target="_blank">The Auk</a>, it's been published since 1884). </span></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgzGsiPtI5iCa0DXMsG_dHg_17NQ3N1i_Gz7KA4_5VPwgXba_VkNqHJo4nKPT0IX8EVoxMrqfLkt1Ho5VtdXRYKib6Qmn87Oekc_ZUveLhiLkPZaXgFxJmenbiAZo7pF3GyZeCu3NZrQ87KblpdMkCvKlZNM4zFqtHuqknFyJr-TsPpo5L3rzzpkUw74ug/s1364/chat%20answer.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><img border="0" data-original-height="796" data-original-width="1364" height="374" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgzGsiPtI5iCa0DXMsG_dHg_17NQ3N1i_Gz7KA4_5VPwgXba_VkNqHJo4nKPT0IX8EVoxMrqfLkt1Ho5VtdXRYKib6Qmn87Oekc_ZUveLhiLkPZaXgFxJmenbiAZo7pF3GyZeCu3NZrQ87KblpdMkCvKlZNM4zFqtHuqknFyJr-TsPpo5L3rzzpkUw74ug/w640-h374/chat%20answer.jpg" width="640" /></span></a></div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">I thought that ChatGPT would take the day here, but then, at the end of its answer, it included this <i>very odd</i> suggestion: </span></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEin6DuLh2Z4DCO_z3weG6u8eqWiVbMEyACU1M0PDkRIsJ2ibtRKIuq0Jo4UcRXWPW1MdzqLl44FdNkjT8h5Qg3jSULZRLe8_cLLedPW8c5b7u6CFX7tUtNTnuHmm0CT8Qe-mL_WGWrHkIWFScXrOvzVSSmSTSebkDciZ3bYiE-jjJiLTbmsGppCtrDw57U/s1356/however.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><img border="0" data-original-height="520" data-original-width="1356" height="246" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEin6DuLh2Z4DCO_z3weG6u8eqWiVbMEyACU1M0PDkRIsJ2ibtRKIuq0Jo4UcRXWPW1MdzqLl44FdNkjT8h5Qg3jSULZRLe8_cLLedPW8c5b7u6CFX7tUtNTnuHmm0CT8Qe-mL_WGWrHkIWFScXrOvzVSSmSTSebkDciZ3bYiE-jjJiLTbmsGppCtrDw57U/w640-h246/however.jpg" width="640" /></span></a></div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Did I read that right? "... <i>here are some hypothetical examples of articles or chapters... though these exact titles may not exist</i>." </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Maybe that's helpful? (It certainly suggests some key terms that might be useful in doing regular searches.) </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">But "hypothetical examples"? I'm not sure this is really much of an addition to my search task. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">My bottom line? Don't trust Gemini to tell you any actual citations... it just makes stuff up. (And that, my friends, makes me very concerned about the quality of the summaries it makes to complex or subtle questions...) </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Keep searching! Your SRS skills are still relevant! </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></p><p><br /></p>Dan Russellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13603209997260423532noreply@blogger.com3tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4953008377950396317.post-51691411877793632392024-02-08T14:15:00.000-08:002024-02-08T14:15:37.972-08:00Answer: How can I get an AI to summarize a document?<p><span style="font-size: x-large;"><span style="background-color: white;"><i><b>So, in summary</b></i><i style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-weight: bold;">… </i></span></span></p><div class="separator" style="background-color: white; clear: both; color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13.2px; text-align: center;"><a data-abc="true" href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgsv4LEhZSpdVc_ZO4HoW2EuKh2VSSjghXFbDU0Jb8-RzbYpVP0NZMuVflD8CPgnDsMq4mrX8RMpGJ9RBtbk8jdrVA6fSpyuna1tej9bxKK5qvQzKrLvNYCW94Jgp4jDpbUydG_Srf1Z3_Zu53xVSk6OP26xM_JmFhQFa3rPkrCNNiN4QnbL_TXotn6EsA/s1450/summary.png" imageanchor="1" style="color: #1119cc; margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em; text-decoration-line: none;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><img border="0" data-original-height="918" data-original-width="1450" height="406" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgsv4LEhZSpdVc_ZO4HoW2EuKh2VSSjghXFbDU0Jb8-RzbYpVP0NZMuVflD8CPgnDsMq4mrX8RMpGJ9RBtbk8jdrVA6fSpyuna1tej9bxKK5qvQzKrLvNYCW94Jgp4jDpbUydG_Srf1Z3_Zu53xVSk6OP26xM_JmFhQFa3rPkrCNNiN4QnbL_TXotn6EsA/w640-h406/summary.png" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; border: 1px solid rgb(238, 238, 238); box-shadow: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.1) 1px 1px 5px; padding: 5px; position: relative;" width="640" /></span></a></div><span style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: georgia;"><br /></span><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></p><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Last week we asked an important question: How can we use LLMs (and AI tools in general) to help summarize things that we'd like to read? </span></p><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">As I said, </span><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: large;">I find that I spend roughly half of my research time just browsing, scanning, and reading—it’s what you need to do to understand a topic area enough to do real work. </span></p><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: large;">Will AI systems make the long, original documents into a shorter, more focused work, punchier crystals of knowledge? Or will that tool end up blurring everything into mush? That's our choice: beautiful crystals of insight or mushy oatmealy language. </span></p><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">What did we find out? </span></p><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0 0 0 40px; padding: 0px;"><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222; text-align: left;"><span style="color: #990000;"><b><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">1. How well does your favorite bit of AI technology do at summarizing long texts? What system do you like for summarizing, and why? </span></b></span></p></blockquote><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Let me start by pointing out the obvious: Creating a <i>good</i> summary is fairly hard. </span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">I could quote <a href="https://quoteinvestigator.com/2015/12/08/speed-reading/" target="_blank">Woody Allen</a>'s quip about speed-reading the infamously lengthy Tolstoy novel <i>War and Peace</i>--"It's about Russia." </span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">That's a summary, but not a useful one. (Likewise, summarizing <i>Moby Dick</i> as "It's about whales," also doesn't help anyone.) </span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">What makes for a good summary? </span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Interestingly, there are oodles of testing systems that measure the performance of LLMs on various dimensions: </span><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Closed-book Open-domain question-answering, Reading Comprehension, Instruction Following, Fact-Checking... etc. </span></span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">One of those dimensions is "Summarization." (Probably the best known of the LLM performance measurements is the <a href="https://huggingface.co/spaces/hallucinations-leaderboard/leaderboard?utm_campaign=The+Batch&utm_medium=email&_hsmi=293208337&_hsenc=p2ANqtz-9WsOCI9Y4jwfHaAC0zM8TALydV8cx4jUn9cHQVoGPqob56rqdUjvalhng_w07CjtoNgcjnr7cf7B71DkooEQsJLbMRSA&utm_content=293208223&utm_source=hs_email" target="_blank">Hallucinations Leaderboard</a> by HuggingFace. You can click on it for today's measures on a bunch of different LLMs on a bunch of different dimensions.) </span></span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Basically, these measures of the quality of a summarization look at the overall similarity between the text (usually texts that are between 200 - 4K words long) and the summary that's generated by the AI tool. That is, if there's a high degree of overlap in the words used in the summary and the original text, then the score is high. (The most commonly used measure is the <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ROUGE_(metric)" target="_blank">ROUGE score</a> to measure summary/original similarity.) </span></span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Of course, while the ROUGE score is handy and easy to compute, it's not necessarily what makes for a good summary. If I summarize <i>Frankenstein</i> as "an exploration of how a quest for understanding the secret of life, and how it all goes horribly wrong," that's not going to be ranked very highly by ROUGE. </span></span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">A good summary, like a good explanation, is largely determined by who the summary is for, not its term overlaps. A good summary of <i>War and Peace</i> to a 10-year old kid is (or should be) very different than for a 25-year old graduate student in world literature. Likewise, a summary of something very technical (say, </span></span><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><i>Calculus: Early Transcendentals</i> by James Stewart, probably the best-selling math textbook on calculus in English) would be very different depending on the target, but also what the purpose of the summary is. Summaries can have very, very different uses. A summary of a book for the <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/section/books/review" target="_blank">New York Times Book Review</a> (which is intended to give a critical perspective on the text) will be different from a review that you post on <a href="http://GoodReads.com">GoodReads.com</a> (which usually gives the plot points and description). </span></span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Having said all of that, what DO people like as a summarization tool? (I'm assuming we're not going to use human-written summaries, such as <a href="https://www.blinkist.com/" target="_blank">Blinkist</a>, <a href="https://www.sparknotes.com/" target="_blank">Sparknotes</a>, or <a href="https://www.cliffsnotes.com/" target="_blank">Cliffnotes</a>.) </span></span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">The bigger question is actually "what LLM will actually summarize long texts?" </span></span></p><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0 0 0 40px; padding: 0px;"><p style="background-color: white; text-align: left;"><b style="color: #990000; font-family: georgia; font-size: large;">2. Test out your summarization method on two long-form texts. </b><span style="color: #990000; font-family: georgia; font-size: large;">First, let’s try that classic gothic tale, Frankenstein by Mary Shelley. (</span><a data-abc="true" href="https://gutenberg.org/cache/epub/84/pg84.txt" style="color: #1119cc; font-family: georgia; font-size: large; text-decoration-line: none;" target="_blank">Here’s a link to the full text that you can use</a><span style="color: #990000; font-family: georgia; font-size: large;">.) How good is that summary? </span><b style="color: #990000; font-family: georgia; font-size: large;"> </b></p></blockquote><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">As I'm sure you found out, there's no convenient way to upload a long text file into Bard/Gemini. If you paste the entire text of Frankenstein into Bard, it stops accepting input around page 15. This is obviously a problem. </span></span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">If you upload the full-text of <i>Frankenstein</i> into ChatGPT4, it not only uploads easily, but if you then ask for a summary, it produces a very nice one. This is the ChatGPT4 summary of <i>Frankenstein:</i> </span></span></p><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed; font-size: medium;">The novel "Frankenstein" by Mary Shelley begins with letters from an explorer named Robert Walton to his sister, where he describes his journey to the North Pole. During this expedition, Walton encounters Victor Frankenstein, who then narrates his own tragic story of ambition, creation, and loss. Victor, a young scientist, creates a sentient creature in an experiment, but is horrified by his creation and abandons it. The creature, seeking companionship and understanding, faces rejection and becomes vengeful, leading to tragic consequences for both creator and creation. The novel explores themes of ambition, isolation, responsibility, and the quest for knowledge.</span></span></p></blockquote><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">If you ask for a longer summary (which I did), it creates a slightly longer version, but only about 100 words longer. I couldn't figure out how to get it to create a much longer version. (Even when I asked for 1000 words, it topped out at 400.) </span></span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">So, for summarizing long texts, ChatGPT4 wins over Bard by a monstrous amount. </span></span></p><div><br /></div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0 0 0 40px; padding: 0px;"><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222; text-align: left;"><span style="color: #990000;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><b>3. Second, let’s try your summarization method on a piece of text you might have read, but might have slightly forgotten—Chapter 10 of my book, </b><i style="font-weight: bold;"><a data-abc="true" href="https://www.amazon.com/Joy-Search-Google-Insiders-Beyond/dp/0262042878" style="color: #1119cc; text-decoration-line: none;" target="_blank">The Joy of Search</a>, </i><a data-abc="true" href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/1S07aL4GVeWdwnENYUVCAiAcRUUF52EdpX36fhLghjcw/edit?usp=sharing" style="color: #1119cc; font-weight: bold; text-decoration-line: none;" target="_blank">link to the full-text of Chapter 10 here</a><b>. </b>"When was oil first discovered in California?"<i style="font-weight: bold;"> </i><span style="font-weight: bold;"> </span>Did your summary method create a good/useful summary? </span></span></p></blockquote><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">This was really interesting: I got both ChatGPT4 and Bard/Gemini to produce good summaries of Chapter 10 of <i>The Joy of Search</i>. Let's look at their summaries side-by-side. </span></p><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">First, here's Bard/Gemini's summary: </span></p><h2 class="" data-sourcepos="1:1-1:51" style="background-color: white; line-height: 1.5rem; margin: 0px 0px 1rem; scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"><br class="Apple-interchange-newline" /><span style="color: #990000; font-family: Roboto Condensed; font-size: small;">Bard/Gemini: </span></h2><h2 class="" data-sourcepos="1:1-1:51" style="background-color: white; color: #1f1f1f; line-height: 1.5rem; margin: 0px 0px 1rem; scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed; font-size: small;">Summary of the Text on California Oil Discovery:</span></h2><p data-sourcepos="3:1-3:210" style="background-color: white; color: #1f1f1f; margin: 1rem 0px; scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent; white-space-collapse: preserve; word-break: break-word;"><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;"><span style="scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;">The text explores the complexities of discovering when and where oil was first found in California.</span><span style="scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"> It emphasizes the importance of critical thinking and careful research when navigating historical information.</span></span></p><p data-sourcepos="5:1-5:15" style="background-color: white; color: #1f1f1f; margin: 1rem 0px; scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent; white-space-collapse: preserve; word-break: break-word;"><span style="font-weight: 700; scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;">Key Points:</span></span></p><ul data-sourcepos="7:1-7:12" style="background-color: white; color: #1f1f1f; margin: 4px 0px; padding-inline-start: 1.125rem; scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;"><span style="scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"></span></span><li data-sourcepos="7:1-7:12" style="margin-bottom: 0px; scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;"><span style="font-weight: 700; scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;">Multiple Claims:</span><span style="scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"> Different sources make various claims about "first" oil discoveries,</span><span style="scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"> citing events like:</span><span style="scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"></span></span><ul data-sourcepos="8:5-8:9" style="margin: 4px 0px; padding-inline-start: 1.125rem; scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;"><span style="scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"></span></span><li data-sourcepos="8:5-8:9" style="margin-bottom: 0px; scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;"><span style="scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;">1865:</span><span style="scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"> Union Matolle Company's commercial sale from Humboldt County.</span></span></li><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;"><span style="scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"></span></span><li data-sourcepos="9:5-9:9" style="margin-bottom: 0px; scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;"><span style="scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;">1876:</span><span style="scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"> Pico No.</span><span style="scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"> 4 well producing continuously for over a century.</span></span></li><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;"><span style="scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"></span></span><li data-sourcepos="10:5-10:9" style="margin-bottom: 0px; scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;"><span style="scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;">1892:</span><span style="scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"> Edward Doheny's supposed oil strike using a eucalyptus trunk (less credible).</span></span></li><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;"><span style="scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"></span></span><li data-sourcepos="11:5-11:66" style="margin-bottom: 0px; scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;"><span style="scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;">1855:</span><span style="scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"> Andreas Pico's small-scale distillation for local use.</span></span></li><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;"><span style="scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"></span></span></ul><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;"><span style="scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"></span></span></li><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;"><span style="scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"></span></span><li data-sourcepos="12:1-14:90" style="margin-bottom: 0px; scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;"><span style="font-weight: 700; scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;">Challenges in Research:</span><span style="scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"></span></span><ul data-sourcepos="13:5-14:90" style="margin: 4px 0px; padding-inline-start: 1.125rem; scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;"><span style="scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"></span></span><li data-sourcepos="13:5-13:69" style="margin-bottom: 0px; scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;"><span style="scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;">Unreliable sources and repetition of errors,</span><span style="scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"> especially online.</span></span></li><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;"><span style="scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"></span></span><li data-sourcepos="14:5-14:90" style="margin-bottom: 0px; scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"><span style="scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;">Conflicting interests and "romantic wildcatter" narratives influencing storytelling.</span></span></li><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;"><span style="scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"></span></span></ul><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;"><span style="scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"></span></span></li><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;"><span style="scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"></span></span><li data-sourcepos="15:1-15:18" style="margin-bottom: 0px; scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;"><span style="font-weight: 700; scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;">Best Answer:</span><span style="scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"></span></span><ul data-sourcepos="16:5-17:83" style="margin: 4px 0px; padding-inline-start: 1.125rem; scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;"><span style="scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"></span></span><li data-sourcepos="16:5-16:89" style="margin-bottom: 0px; scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;"><span style="scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;">For </span><span style="font-weight: 700; scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;">commercial sales</span><span style="scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;">,</span><span style="scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"> evidence points to the </span><span style="font-weight: 700; scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;">Union Matolle Company in 1865</span><span style="scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;">.</span></span></li><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;"><span style="scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"></span></span><li data-sourcepos="17:5-17:83" style="margin-bottom: 0px; scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;"><span style="scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;">For </span><span style="font-weight: 700; scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;">long-term success and impact</span><span style="scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;">,</span><span style="scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"> </span><span style="font-weight: 700; scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;">Pico No. 4 in 1876</span><span style="scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"> holds the title.</span></span></li><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;"><span style="scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"></span></span></ul><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;"><span style="scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"></span></span></li><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;"><span style="scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"></span></span><li data-sourcepos="18:1-22:0" style="margin-bottom: 0px; scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;"><span style="font-weight: 700; scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;">Research Lessons:</span><span style="scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"></span></span><ul data-sourcepos="19:5-22:0" style="margin: 4px 0px; padding-inline-start: 1.125rem; scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;"><span style="scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"></span></span><li data-sourcepos="19:5-19:35" style="margin-bottom: 0px; scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"><span style="scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;">Define your question clearly.</span></span></li><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;"><span style="scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"></span></span><li data-sourcepos="20:5-20:63" style="margin-bottom: 0px; scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"><span style="scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;">Be wary of duplicated content and unattributed citations.</span></span></li><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;"><span style="scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"></span></span><li data-sourcepos="21:5-22:0" style="margin-bottom: 0px; scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"><span style="scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;">Organize your findings and compare competing claims with evidence.</span></span></li><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;"><span style="scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"></span></span></ul><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;"><span style="scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"></span></span></li><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;"><span style="scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"></span></span></ul><p data-sourcepos="23:1-23:21" style="background-color: white; color: #1f1f1f; margin: 1rem 0px; scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent; white-space-collapse: preserve; word-break: break-word;"><span style="font-weight: 700; scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;">Additional Notes:</span></span></p><ul data-sourcepos="25:1-28:0" style="background-color: white; color: #1f1f1f; margin: 4px 0px; padding-inline-start: 1.125rem; scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;"><span style="scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"></span></span><li data-sourcepos="25:1-25:63" style="margin-bottom: 0px; scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"><span style="scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;">The text criticizes poor scholarship and plagiarized content.</span></span></li><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;"><span style="scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"></span></span><li data-sourcepos="26:1-26:90" style="margin-bottom: 0px; scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"><span style="scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;">It emphasizes the importance of scrutinizing sources and understanding potential biases.</span></span></li><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;"><span style="scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"></span></span><li data-sourcepos="27:1-28:0" style="margin-bottom: 0px; scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"><span style="scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;">The provided research tips can be applied to various historical inquiries.</span></span></li><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;"><span style="scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"></span></span></ul><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;"><span style="color: #1f1f1f; scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"></span><span style="color: #1f1f1f; scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"></span><span style="color: #1f1f1f; scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"></span><span style="color: #1f1f1f; scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"></span><span style="color: #1f1f1f; scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"></span><span style="color: #1f1f1f; scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"></span></span></p><p data-sourcepos="29:1-29:114" style="background-color: white; color: #1f1f1f; margin: 1rem 0px; scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent; white-space-collapse: preserve; word-break: break-word;"><span style="scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;">This summary captures the main points of the text while highlighting its critical approach to historical research.</span></span></p><p data-sourcepos="29:1-29:114" style="background-color: white; color: #1f1f1f; font-family: "Google Sans", "Helvetica Neue", sans-serif; font-size: 16px; margin: 1rem 0px; scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent; white-space-collapse: preserve; word-break: break-word;"><span style="scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: large; white-space-collapse: collapse;">And here's ChatGPT4's summary: </span></span></p><h2 class="" data-sourcepos="1:1-1:51" style="background-color: white; line-height: 1.5rem; margin: 0px 0px 1rem; scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"><span style="color: #990000; font-family: Roboto Condensed; font-size: small;">ChatGPT4:</span></h2><p style="--tw-border-spacing-x: 0; --tw-border-spacing-y: 0; --tw-ring-color: rgba(69,89,164,.5); --tw-ring-offset-color: #fff; --tw-ring-offset-shadow: 0 0 transparent; --tw-ring-offset-width: 0px; --tw-ring-shadow: 0 0 transparent; --tw-rotate: 0; --tw-scale-x: 1; --tw-scale-y: 1; --tw-scroll-snap-strictness: proximity; --tw-shadow-colored: 0 0 transparent; --tw-shadow: 0 0 transparent; --tw-skew-x: 0; --tw-skew-y: 0; --tw-translate-x: 0; --tw-translate-y: 0; background-color: white; border: 0px solid rgb(227, 227, 227); box-sizing: border-box; color: #0d0d0d; margin: 0px 0px 1.25em; white-space-collapse: preserve;"><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;">The text is a research narrative exploring the origins of oil discovery in California. It begins with the author's personal reflection on growing up in Los Angeles, an area dotted with oil wells, which sparked the question: When and where was oil first discovered in California?</span></p><p style="--tw-border-spacing-x: 0; --tw-border-spacing-y: 0; --tw-ring-color: rgba(69,89,164,.5); --tw-ring-offset-color: #fff; --tw-ring-offset-shadow: 0 0 transparent; --tw-ring-offset-width: 0px; --tw-ring-shadow: 0 0 transparent; --tw-rotate: 0; --tw-scale-x: 1; --tw-scale-y: 1; --tw-scroll-snap-strictness: proximity; --tw-shadow-colored: 0 0 transparent; --tw-shadow: 0 0 transparent; --tw-skew-x: 0; --tw-skew-y: 0; --tw-translate-x: 0; --tw-translate-y: 0; background-color: white; border: 0px solid rgb(227, 227, 227); box-sizing: border-box; color: #0d0d0d; margin: 1.25em 0px; white-space-collapse: preserve;"><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;">The author's search for an answer reveals complexities due to conflicting information and widespread text reuse across sources. The narrative follows the investigation through various claims:</span></p><ol style="--tw-border-spacing-x: 0; --tw-border-spacing-y: 0; --tw-ring-color: rgba(69,89,164,.5); --tw-ring-offset-color: #fff; --tw-ring-offset-shadow: 0 0 transparent; --tw-ring-offset-width: 0px; --tw-ring-shadow: 0 0 transparent; --tw-rotate: 0; --tw-scale-x: 1; --tw-scale-y: 1; --tw-scroll-snap-strictness: proximity; --tw-shadow-colored: 0 0 transparent; --tw-shadow: 0 0 transparent; --tw-skew-x: 0; --tw-skew-y: 0; --tw-translate-x: 0; --tw-translate-y: 0; background-color: white; border: 0px solid rgb(227, 227, 227); box-sizing: border-box; color: #0d0d0d; counter-reset: list-number 0; display: flex; flex-direction: column; list-style: none; margin: 1.25em 0px; padding: 0px; white-space-collapse: preserve;"><li style="--tw-border-spacing-x: 0; --tw-border-spacing-y: 0; --tw-ring-color: rgba(69,89,164,.5); --tw-ring-offset-color: #fff; --tw-ring-offset-shadow: 0 0 transparent; --tw-ring-offset-width: 0px; --tw-ring-shadow: 0 0 transparent; --tw-rotate: 0; --tw-scale-x: 1; --tw-scale-y: 1; --tw-scroll-snap-strictness: proximity; --tw-shadow-colored: 0 0 transparent; --tw-shadow: 0 0 transparent; --tw-skew-x: 0; --tw-skew-y: 0; --tw-translate-x: 0; --tw-translate-y: 0; border: 0px solid rgb(227, 227, 227); box-sizing: border-box; counter-increment: list-number 1; display: block; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-top: 0px; min-height: 28px; padding-left: 0.375em;"><p style="--tw-border-spacing-x: 0; --tw-border-spacing-y: 0; --tw-ring-color: rgba(69,89,164,.5); --tw-ring-offset-color: #fff; --tw-ring-offset-shadow: 0 0 transparent; --tw-ring-offset-width: 0px; --tw-ring-shadow: 0 0 transparent; --tw-rotate: 0; --tw-scale-x: 1; --tw-scale-y: 1; --tw-scroll-snap-strictness: proximity; --tw-shadow-colored: 0 0 transparent; --tw-shadow: 0 0 transparent; --tw-skew-x: 0; --tw-skew-y: 0; --tw-translate-x: 0; --tw-translate-y: 0; border: 0px solid rgb(227, 227, 227); box-sizing: border-box; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;"><span style="--tw-border-spacing-x: 0; --tw-border-spacing-y: 0; --tw-ring-color: rgba(69,89,164,.5); --tw-ring-offset-color: #fff; --tw-ring-offset-shadow: 0 0 transparent; --tw-ring-offset-width: 0px; --tw-ring-shadow: 0 0 transparent; --tw-rotate: 0; --tw-scale-x: 1; --tw-scale-y: 1; --tw-scroll-snap-strictness: proximity; --tw-shadow-colored: 0 0 transparent; --tw-shadow: 0 0 transparent; --tw-skew-x: 0; --tw-skew-y: 0; --tw-translate-x: 0; --tw-translate-y: 0; border: 0px solid rgb(227, 227, 227); box-sizing: border-box; color: var(--tw-prose-bold); font-weight: 600;">1. Union Matolle Company in 1865</span>: Said to be the first productive well in California's Central Valley, but the location was inaccurately attributed, as the company operated in Humboldt County, not the Central Valley.</span></p></li><li style="--tw-border-spacing-x: 0; --tw-border-spacing-y: 0; --tw-ring-color: rgba(69,89,164,.5); --tw-ring-offset-color: #fff; --tw-ring-offset-shadow: 0 0 transparent; --tw-ring-offset-width: 0px; --tw-ring-shadow: 0 0 transparent; --tw-rotate: 0; --tw-scale-x: 1; --tw-scale-y: 1; --tw-scroll-snap-strictness: proximity; --tw-shadow-colored: 0 0 transparent; --tw-shadow: 0 0 transparent; --tw-skew-x: 0; --tw-skew-y: 0; --tw-translate-x: 0; --tw-translate-y: 0; border: 0px solid rgb(227, 227, 227); box-sizing: border-box; counter-increment: list-number 1; display: block; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-top: 0px; min-height: 28px; padding-left: 0.375em;"><p style="--tw-border-spacing-x: 0; --tw-border-spacing-y: 0; --tw-ring-color: rgba(69,89,164,.5); --tw-ring-offset-color: #fff; --tw-ring-offset-shadow: 0 0 transparent; --tw-ring-offset-width: 0px; --tw-ring-shadow: 0 0 transparent; --tw-rotate: 0; --tw-scale-x: 1; --tw-scale-y: 1; --tw-scroll-snap-strictness: proximity; --tw-shadow-colored: 0 0 transparent; --tw-shadow: 0 0 transparent; --tw-skew-x: 0; --tw-skew-y: 0; --tw-translate-x: 0; --tw-translate-y: 0; border: 0px solid rgb(227, 227, 227); box-sizing: border-box; margin: 0px;"><span style="--tw-border-spacing-x: 0; --tw-border-spacing-y: 0; --tw-ring-color: rgba(69,89,164,.5); --tw-ring-offset-color: #fff; --tw-ring-offset-shadow: 0 0 transparent; --tw-ring-offset-width: 0px; --tw-ring-shadow: 0 0 transparent; --tw-rotate: 0; --tw-scale-x: 1; --tw-scale-y: 1; --tw-scroll-snap-strictness: proximity; --tw-shadow-colored: 0 0 transparent; --tw-shadow: 0 0 transparent; --tw-skew-x: 0; --tw-skew-y: 0; --tw-translate-x: 0; --tw-translate-y: 0; border: 0px solid rgb(227, 227, 227); box-sizing: border-box; color: var(--tw-prose-bold); font-weight: 600;"><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;"><br /></span></span></p></li><li style="--tw-border-spacing-x: 0; --tw-border-spacing-y: 0; --tw-ring-color: rgba(69,89,164,.5); --tw-ring-offset-color: #fff; --tw-ring-offset-shadow: 0 0 transparent; --tw-ring-offset-width: 0px; --tw-ring-shadow: 0 0 transparent; --tw-rotate: 0; --tw-scale-x: 1; --tw-scale-y: 1; --tw-scroll-snap-strictness: proximity; --tw-shadow-colored: 0 0 transparent; --tw-shadow: 0 0 transparent; --tw-skew-x: 0; --tw-skew-y: 0; --tw-translate-x: 0; --tw-translate-y: 0; border: 0px solid rgb(227, 227, 227); box-sizing: border-box; counter-increment: list-number 1; display: block; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-top: 0px; min-height: 28px; padding-left: 0.375em;"><p style="--tw-border-spacing-x: 0; --tw-border-spacing-y: 0; --tw-ring-color: rgba(69,89,164,.5); --tw-ring-offset-color: #fff; --tw-ring-offset-shadow: 0 0 transparent; --tw-ring-offset-width: 0px; --tw-ring-shadow: 0 0 transparent; --tw-rotate: 0; --tw-scale-x: 1; --tw-scale-y: 1; --tw-scroll-snap-strictness: proximity; --tw-shadow-colored: 0 0 transparent; --tw-shadow: 0 0 transparent; --tw-skew-x: 0; --tw-skew-y: 0; --tw-translate-x: 0; --tw-translate-y: 0; border: 0px solid rgb(227, 227, 227); box-sizing: border-box; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;"><span style="--tw-border-spacing-x: 0; --tw-border-spacing-y: 0; --tw-ring-color: rgba(69,89,164,.5); --tw-ring-offset-color: #fff; --tw-ring-offset-shadow: 0 0 transparent; --tw-ring-offset-width: 0px; --tw-ring-shadow: 0 0 transparent; --tw-rotate: 0; --tw-scale-x: 1; --tw-scale-y: 1; --tw-scroll-snap-strictness: proximity; --tw-shadow-colored: 0 0 transparent; --tw-shadow: 0 0 transparent; --tw-skew-x: 0; --tw-skew-y: 0; --tw-translate-x: 0; --tw-translate-y: 0; border: 0px solid rgb(227, 227, 227); box-sizing: border-box; color: var(--tw-prose-bold); font-weight: 600;">2. Charles Alexander Mentry in 1876</span>: Credited with striking oil in Pico No. 4, which became California's first commercially successful well, corroborated by Chevron's corporate history and a Wikipedia entry.</span></p></li><li style="--tw-border-spacing-x: 0; --tw-border-spacing-y: 0; --tw-ring-color: rgba(69,89,164,.5); --tw-ring-offset-color: #fff; --tw-ring-offset-shadow: 0 0 transparent; --tw-ring-offset-width: 0px; --tw-ring-shadow: 0 0 transparent; --tw-rotate: 0; --tw-scale-x: 1; --tw-scale-y: 1; --tw-scroll-snap-strictness: proximity; --tw-shadow-colored: 0 0 transparent; --tw-shadow: 0 0 transparent; --tw-skew-x: 0; --tw-skew-y: 0; --tw-translate-x: 0; --tw-translate-y: 0; border: 0px solid rgb(227, 227, 227); box-sizing: border-box; counter-increment: list-number 1; display: block; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-top: 0px; min-height: 28px; padding-left: 0.375em;"><p style="--tw-border-spacing-x: 0; --tw-border-spacing-y: 0; --tw-ring-color: rgba(69,89,164,.5); --tw-ring-offset-color: #fff; --tw-ring-offset-shadow: 0 0 transparent; --tw-ring-offset-width: 0px; --tw-ring-shadow: 0 0 transparent; --tw-rotate: 0; --tw-scale-x: 1; --tw-scale-y: 1; --tw-scroll-snap-strictness: proximity; --tw-shadow-colored: 0 0 transparent; --tw-shadow: 0 0 transparent; --tw-skew-x: 0; --tw-skew-y: 0; --tw-translate-x: 0; --tw-translate-y: 0; border: 0px solid rgb(227, 227, 227); box-sizing: border-box; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;"><br /></span></p></li><li style="--tw-border-spacing-x: 0; --tw-border-spacing-y: 0; --tw-ring-color: rgba(69,89,164,.5); --tw-ring-offset-color: #fff; --tw-ring-offset-shadow: 0 0 transparent; --tw-ring-offset-width: 0px; --tw-ring-shadow: 0 0 transparent; --tw-rotate: 0; --tw-scale-x: 1; --tw-scale-y: 1; --tw-scroll-snap-strictness: proximity; --tw-shadow-colored: 0 0 transparent; --tw-shadow: 0 0 transparent; --tw-skew-x: 0; --tw-skew-y: 0; --tw-translate-x: 0; --tw-translate-y: 0; border: 0px solid rgb(227, 227, 227); box-sizing: border-box; counter-increment: list-number 1; display: block; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-top: 0px; min-height: 28px; padding-left: 0.375em;"><p style="--tw-border-spacing-x: 0; --tw-border-spacing-y: 0; --tw-ring-color: rgba(69,89,164,.5); --tw-ring-offset-color: #fff; --tw-ring-offset-shadow: 0 0 transparent; --tw-ring-offset-width: 0px; --tw-ring-shadow: 0 0 transparent; --tw-rotate: 0; --tw-scale-x: 1; --tw-scale-y: 1; --tw-scroll-snap-strictness: proximity; --tw-shadow-colored: 0 0 transparent; --tw-shadow: 0 0 transparent; --tw-skew-x: 0; --tw-skew-y: 0; --tw-translate-x: 0; --tw-translate-y: 0; border: 0px solid rgb(227, 227, 227); box-sizing: border-box; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;"><span style="--tw-border-spacing-x: 0; --tw-border-spacing-y: 0; --tw-ring-color: rgba(69,89,164,.5); --tw-ring-offset-color: #fff; --tw-ring-offset-shadow: 0 0 transparent; --tw-ring-offset-width: 0px; --tw-ring-shadow: 0 0 transparent; --tw-rotate: 0; --tw-scale-x: 1; --tw-scale-y: 1; --tw-scroll-snap-strictness: proximity; --tw-shadow-colored: 0 0 transparent; --tw-shadow: 0 0 transparent; --tw-skew-x: 0; --tw-skew-y: 0; --tw-translate-x: 0; --tw-translate-y: 0; border: 0px solid rgb(227, 227, 227); box-sizing: border-box; color: var(--tw-prose-bold); font-weight: 600;">3. Edward Doheny in 1892</span>: Reported to have used a eucalyptus tree trunk to drill for oil in downtown LA, but the narrative casts doubt on this claim due to its tall-tale nature.</span></p></li><li style="--tw-border-spacing-x: 0; --tw-border-spacing-y: 0; --tw-ring-color: rgba(69,89,164,.5); --tw-ring-offset-color: #fff; --tw-ring-offset-shadow: 0 0 transparent; --tw-ring-offset-width: 0px; --tw-ring-shadow: 0 0 transparent; --tw-rotate: 0; --tw-scale-x: 1; --tw-scale-y: 1; --tw-scroll-snap-strictness: proximity; --tw-shadow-colored: 0 0 transparent; --tw-shadow: 0 0 transparent; --tw-skew-x: 0; --tw-skew-y: 0; --tw-translate-x: 0; --tw-translate-y: 0; border: 0px solid rgb(227, 227, 227); box-sizing: border-box; counter-increment: list-number 1; display: block; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-top: 0px; min-height: 28px; padding-left: 0.375em;"><p style="--tw-border-spacing-x: 0; --tw-border-spacing-y: 0; --tw-ring-color: rgba(69,89,164,.5); --tw-ring-offset-color: #fff; --tw-ring-offset-shadow: 0 0 transparent; --tw-ring-offset-width: 0px; --tw-ring-shadow: 0 0 transparent; --tw-rotate: 0; --tw-scale-x: 1; --tw-scale-y: 1; --tw-scroll-snap-strictness: proximity; --tw-shadow-colored: 0 0 transparent; --tw-shadow: 0 0 transparent; --tw-skew-x: 0; --tw-skew-y: 0; --tw-translate-x: 0; --tw-translate-y: 0; border: 0px solid rgb(227, 227, 227); box-sizing: border-box; margin: 0px;"><span style="--tw-border-spacing-x: 0; --tw-border-spacing-y: 0; --tw-ring-color: rgba(69,89,164,.5); --tw-ring-offset-color: #fff; --tw-ring-offset-shadow: 0 0 transparent; --tw-ring-offset-width: 0px; --tw-ring-shadow: 0 0 transparent; --tw-rotate: 0; --tw-scale-x: 1; --tw-scale-y: 1; --tw-scroll-snap-strictness: proximity; --tw-shadow-colored: 0 0 transparent; --tw-shadow: 0 0 transparent; --tw-skew-x: 0; --tw-skew-y: 0; --tw-translate-x: 0; --tw-translate-y: 0; border: 0px solid rgb(227, 227, 227); box-sizing: border-box; color: var(--tw-prose-bold); font-weight: 600;"><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;"><br /></span></span></p></li><li style="--tw-border-spacing-x: 0; --tw-border-spacing-y: 0; --tw-ring-color: rgba(69,89,164,.5); --tw-ring-offset-color: #fff; --tw-ring-offset-shadow: 0 0 transparent; --tw-ring-offset-width: 0px; --tw-ring-shadow: 0 0 transparent; --tw-rotate: 0; --tw-scale-x: 1; --tw-scale-y: 1; --tw-scroll-snap-strictness: proximity; --tw-shadow-colored: 0 0 transparent; --tw-shadow: 0 0 transparent; --tw-skew-x: 0; --tw-skew-y: 0; --tw-translate-x: 0; --tw-translate-y: 0; border: 0px solid rgb(227, 227, 227); box-sizing: border-box; counter-increment: list-number 1; display: block; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-top: 0px; min-height: 28px; padding-left: 0.375em;"><p style="--tw-border-spacing-x: 0; --tw-border-spacing-y: 0; --tw-ring-color: rgba(69,89,164,.5); --tw-ring-offset-color: #fff; --tw-ring-offset-shadow: 0 0 transparent; --tw-ring-offset-width: 0px; --tw-ring-shadow: 0 0 transparent; --tw-rotate: 0; --tw-scale-x: 1; --tw-scale-y: 1; --tw-scroll-snap-strictness: proximity; --tw-shadow-colored: 0 0 transparent; --tw-shadow: 0 0 transparent; --tw-skew-x: 0; --tw-skew-y: 0; --tw-translate-x: 0; --tw-translate-y: 0; border: 0px solid rgb(227, 227, 227); box-sizing: border-box; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;"><span style="--tw-border-spacing-x: 0; --tw-border-spacing-y: 0; --tw-ring-color: rgba(69,89,164,.5); --tw-ring-offset-color: #fff; --tw-ring-offset-shadow: 0 0 transparent; --tw-ring-offset-width: 0px; --tw-ring-shadow: 0 0 transparent; --tw-rotate: 0; --tw-scale-x: 1; --tw-scale-y: 1; --tw-scroll-snap-strictness: proximity; --tw-shadow-colored: 0 0 transparent; --tw-shadow: 0 0 transparent; --tw-skew-x: 0; --tw-skew-y: 0; --tw-translate-x: 0; --tw-translate-y: 0; border: 0px solid rgb(227, 227, 227); box-sizing: border-box; color: var(--tw-prose-bold); font-weight: 600;">4. Andreas Pico in 1855</span>: Known for distilling small amounts of oil in Pico Canyon, but not considered a commercial success.</span></p></li></ol><p data-sourcepos="29:1-29:114" style="background-color: white; color: #1f1f1f; margin: 1rem 0px; scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent; white-space-collapse: preserve; word-break: break-word;"><span style="scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent;"><span style="color: #0d0d0d;"><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;">The author finds that the Union Matolle Company had the first commercial sales of refined oil from a well in Humboldt County in 1865, but Pico No. 4, beginning operations in 1876, had the most enduring success. The narrative concludes with insights on research methodology, emphasizing the importance of precise questions, skepticism toward duplicated content, and the organization of findings to answer complex research questions.</span></span></span></p><p data-sourcepos="29:1-29:114" style="background-color: white; color: #1f1f1f; margin: 1rem 0px; scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent; white-space-collapse: preserve; word-break: break-word;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: large;"><br /></span></p><p data-sourcepos="29:1-29:114" style="background-color: white; color: #1f1f1f; margin: 1rem 0px; scrollbar-color: rgb(218, 220, 224) transparent; white-space-collapse: preserve; word-break: break-word;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: large;">Both are decent summaries, but there's an interesting difference between them. ChatGPT4's summary is primarily focused on the <i>oil discovery claims</i> (that's what the 4 points are all about). </span></p><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">By contrast, Bard/Gemini's summary is focused on <i>what makes this online research difficult to do</i>, and the lessons you should learn along the way. (That's what Bard's bullet points highlight.) </span></p><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">To be sure, they both mention that this chapter is about research methods and skills... but I think Bard/Gemini gets the focus a bit more right than ChatGPT4. </span></p><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></p><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><b>SearchResearch Lessons</b></span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><b><i><span style="color: #990000;">1. As we've learned before, different tools have different strengths.</span></i></b><span style="color: #222222;"> ChatGPT4 is MUCH more able to handle large quantities of information (we could upload </span><i style="color: #222222;">Frankenstein </i><span style="color: #222222;">to ChatGPT4 but not to Bard). You, the SearchResearcher need to understand what you can do with each tool. </span></span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><i><b><span style="color: #990000;">2. Summaries are complicated--ask for exactly the kind of summary you need.</span></b></i><span style="color: #222222;"> For instance, I could have asked for a summary of Chapter 10 "written for a 6th grader" and the language and lessons would have been much simpler. </span></span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><span style="color: #222222;"><br /></span></span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><span style="color: #222222;">I'm sure I'll have more to say about this topic in days to come. But for the moment, different LLMs have different strengths. Try them all! </span></span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><span style="color: #222222;"><br /></span></span></p><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></p><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Keep searching! </span></p>Dan Russellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13603209997260423532noreply@blogger.com9tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4953008377950396317.post-38792175028428259102024-02-07T12:28:00.000-08:002024-02-07T12:28:02.529-08:00Interlude: Two SRS-style stories and the regretted loss of cache: <p><span style="color: #660000; font-family: georgia; font-size: large;"><b><i> It's been busy here at the SRS rancho... </i></b></span></p><p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiI0nEd5MhGq-LeShMXfbv_CIEu-29yRXMQNfwnpfTucxgwpqrpDOpaRE5F10cbT5uAcdBsmGzK_EzKHrKfkXjPwRJ8QH7N5y66nfoE9-pgetFl9Uyo00t38XuAiwOHzY-fRf5AkxF-UEyTOYg2mNgqwegKnCkWAxECvH13RZtgikMDu9yS7USEM4fMR_U/s1024/Interlude%20searching.jpeg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1024" data-original-width="1024" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiI0nEd5MhGq-LeShMXfbv_CIEu-29yRXMQNfwnpfTucxgwpqrpDOpaRE5F10cbT5uAcdBsmGzK_EzKHrKfkXjPwRJ8QH7N5y66nfoE9-pgetFl9Uyo00t38XuAiwOHzY-fRf5AkxF-UEyTOYg2mNgqwegKnCkWAxECvH13RZtgikMDu9yS7USEM4fMR_U/w640-h640/Interlude%20searching.jpeg" width="640" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">Search interlude. P/C DallE-3. </td></tr></tbody></table><br /><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">... and so today is an interlude with a few stories you'll want to read. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><b><i><span style="color: #990000;">1. First up, a story by Latif Nasser of RadioLab (the brilliant podcast) about his research quest. </span></i></b> In a <a href="https://twitter.com/latifnasser/status/1750952860131729544" target="_blank">longish Twitter/X thread</a>, he tells the story of how he noticed a small, just slightly wrong detail in his young son's poster of the Solar System. He noticed a moon orbiting Venus that was labeled "Zoozve." A quick search told him that, as he thought, Venus doesn't <i>have</i> any moons. He then "... googled “Zoozve” and got no results, literally zero results in English. Only results were in Czech and they were about zoos. Not what I was looking for." </span></p><p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEheM8-np4BbKAjP_bmH-v9ewaiZjljgm1-fN3qa-2KlgA5T_vQ-UmT_OeEVHfiq2g622OeLevBqluk3Jz7C9Sw3bHGVcI859uz8EqHtWh_mu25r_8d_09CQoazUZ2jvcpmWU_1kvM9ypkrocReayxaBn4ew0d824N_S9AtrsRPd7b8nA3XkumU1w4_NP4U/s1584/Zoozve%20image.png" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1584" data-original-width="1316" height="320" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEheM8-np4BbKAjP_bmH-v9ewaiZjljgm1-fN3qa-2KlgA5T_vQ-UmT_OeEVHfiq2g622OeLevBqluk3Jz7C9Sw3bHGVcI859uz8EqHtWh_mu25r_8d_09CQoazUZ2jvcpmWU_1kvM9ypkrocReayxaBn4ew0d824N_S9AtrsRPd7b8nA3XkumU1w4_NP4U/s320/Zoozve%20image.png" width="266" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">Close up of the original Solar System poster by <a href="https://www.alex-foster.com/" target="_blank">Alex Foster</a>.</td></tr></tbody></table><br /><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">After calling a NASA friend (Liz) and learning the same thing (yeah--no moons around Venus), he contacted the artist directly (Alex Foster), who said that he saw it on a list of moons... but he couldn't find that list any longer. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><i>Then,</i> in a dramatic turn of events, Liz, the NASA friend called back saying "I think I figured it out." Turns out there IS an object near Venus called "2002-VE"... could the artist have misread this as "Zoozve"? </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">To be sure, 2002-VE isn't a moon, it's more of a wandering asteroid--a big rock that's currently orbiting Venus. Maybe you can call it a moonlet, or the more technical term, a <i>quasi-satellite</i>. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Latif then called Brian Skiff at Lowell Observatory in Arizona--he's the guy who found it in 2002 as part of the <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lowell_Observatory_Near-Earth-Object_Search" target="_blank">LONEOS</a> project--a very large-scale asteroid hunt for asteriods near Earth than could potentially smack into our planet causing a terminal event.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Along the way, Latif also found 2 astronomers who kept watching 2002-VE: Seppo Mikkola in Finland and Paul Wiegert in Canada. They told him that Zoozve is NOT a moon of Venus. But it’s also NOT really a moon of Venus. It’s both of Venus and not of Venus. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">A little more digging led Latif to a paper published in the Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society. In their paper <a href="https://academic.oup.com/mnras/article/351/3/L63/1055809" target="_blank">Asteroid 2002 VE68, a quasi-satellite of Venus</a>, the authors point out that this moonlet has been in orbit around Venus for around 7,000 years, and will probably leave that orbit in 500 years (or so) until it's captured by another planet, or just wanders around the sun. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">As they write in the paper, "From the evolution of the orbit of this object, we conclude that it may have been a near-Earth asteroid, which, some 7000 yr ago, was injected into its present orbit by the action of the Earth." </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Latif then went on to learn that these quasi-satellites are complicated beasts, following extraordinarily complex orbits, and sometimes (as in the case of 2002-VE) moving their orbits between planets. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><b>SearchResearch Lessons:</b> </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">I love Latif's story here: it all started when he noticed a small detail that didn't fit in with what he knew ("there's no moon around Venus!"), so he started a research project to figure out what was going on. I like that he failed in his Google search, <i>but he kept at it</i>, even contacting the artist and an astronomically learned friend. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Liz, the NASA friend, had the key insight--maybe this was a misreading of something very similar! Once you had the correct name for the thing, search gets a lot simpler. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Bravo! </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">(Postscript: Latif and Brian Skiff proposed that the quasi-satellite be called Zoozve... and the International Astronomical Union’s Working Group for Small Bodies Nomenclature (who keeps track of these things), ended up adopting the name, thereby making Alex Foster's poster correct retroactively. <a href="https://www.wgsbn-iau.org/files/Bulletins/V004/WGSBNBull_V004_002.pdf" target="_blank">Link to the paper that officially adopted the name</a>.) </span></p><p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgey_f7j7iVJmuuDycLdnOOJV5p39du2o77mYDoYe5NT4crJqDZb3sQQ1NudqAplQ4lfcZq-sHaa3tPdoiLa7b1hrIqRCsEoqzz0rb3sMxXPsDfxXhETHm_CoFvFv5Xw0ot4T_8V52_CPMLUAoC9XHTMld6YYrxCFBDtLnzaJ-CtyTr5Hxjqcurr58F_7w/s1478/Zoozve%20adoption.png" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="354" data-original-width="1478" height="154" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgey_f7j7iVJmuuDycLdnOOJV5p39du2o77mYDoYe5NT4crJqDZb3sQQ1NudqAplQ4lfcZq-sHaa3tPdoiLa7b1hrIqRCsEoqzz0rb3sMxXPsDfxXhETHm_CoFvFv5Xw0ot4T_8V52_CPMLUAoC9XHTMld6YYrxCFBDtLnzaJ-CtyTr5Hxjqcurr58F_7w/w640-h154/Zoozve%20adoption.png" width="640" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">Official announcement in the IAU's working group</td></tr></tbody></table><br /><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></p><p><br /></p><p><b style="font-family: georgia; font-size: large;"><i><span style="color: #990000;">2. A story by Henk van Ess: Research into why planes sometimes travel faster than expected</span></i></b></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: large;"><span>On a recent flight, Friend-of-SRS Henk van Ess was puzzled: why did the flight's arrival time show as a full hour <i>ahead</i> of schedule? What would cause that to happen? </span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: large;">In his blog post at DigitalDigging.org (which I recommend to you), he gets to the bottom of this question through a conversation with ChatGPT and some sharp reasoning to determine that biggest factors for the faster times are: (a) it's not tailwinds; (b) it's not the jet stream; (c) it's not having a light load with fewer passengers onboard. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">It IS primarily due to buffer times built into their schedule. (But they did have a <i>lack</i> of headwinds, which also helped.) </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">But his article points out that there's a big difference between ChatGPT 3.5 and ChatGPT 4 with the Data Analyst option turned on. Your choice of LLMs really matter--understand which one you're using and be aware of the differences. </span></p><p><b style="font-family: georgia; font-size: large;">SearchResearch Lessons:</b><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: large;"> </span><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">In the end, Henk says that "... if you don't ask the right questions, you won't get the answers you need. Being clear and specific is key." </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">We've talked about exactly this point many times here on SRS. Understand your tools and be clear--very clear--about what you're asking. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></p><p><span style="color: #990000; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><i style="font-weight: bold;">3. The loss of the cache: </i> </span></p><p><span style="font-size: medium;"><span style="font-family: georgia;">Most SRS Readers know that the </span><b><span style="font-family: arial;">cache:</span></b><span style="font-family: georgia;"> operator lets you pull up the last cached version of a web page. (<a href="https://searchresearch1.blogspot.com/2018/03/excellent-research-tool-wayback-machine.html" target="_blank">See the SRS discussion of </a></span></span><span style="font-family: arial; font-size: medium;"><b><a href="https://searchresearch1.blogspot.com/2018/03/excellent-research-tool-wayback-machine.html" target="_blank">cache:</a></b></span><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://searchresearch1.blogspot.com/2018/03/excellent-research-tool-wayback-machine.html" target="_blank"> from 2018</a>.) </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Alas, Google has deprecated this feature, so we can't use it any longer. (See <a href="https://twitter.com/searchliaison/status/1753156161509916873" target="_blank">Danny Sullivan's Twitter post about this</a>.) </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">In the meantime, I HIGHLY recommend that you get the browser Wayback Machine extension for your preferred browser. Here's the list: </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"> </span><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed; font-size: medium;"> <a href="https://chromewebstore.google.com/detail/wayback-machine/fpnmgdkabkmnadcjpehmlllkndpkmiak?pli=1" target="_blank">Chrome Wayback Browser Extension</a> </span></p><p><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed; font-size: medium;"> <a href="https://apps.apple.com/us/app/wayback-machine/id1472432422?mt=12" target="_blank">Safari Wayback Browser Extension</a> </span></p><p><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed; font-size: medium;"> <a href="https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/wayback-machine_new/" target="_blank">Firefox Wayback Browser Extension</a> </span></p><p><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed; font-size: medium;"> <a href="https://microsoftedge.microsoft.com/addons/detail/wayback-machine/kjmickeoogghaimmomagaghnogelpcpn?hl=en-US" target="_blank">Edge Wayback Browser Extension</a> </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Note that Bing still supports the </span><b style="font-size: large;"><span style="font-family: arial;">cache:</span></b><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: large;"> operator, so you don't really need it if you're an Edge user. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: large;">FWIW, I suspect more features will be deprecated in the future, but I don't know what / when / or why. It's just gonna happen as Google tries to save money and reduce the overall complexity of the search system from their side (and, presumably, invest those savings into Bard, or <a href="https://9to5google.com/2024/02/01/google-bard-rename-gemini/" target="_blank">whatever they're going to call their GenAI LLM</a>). </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: large;"><br /></span></p><p><b style="font-family: georgia; font-size: large;">SearchResearch Lessons:</b><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: large;"> </span><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Things change... even operators. Stay tuned because this will continue to happen. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: large;">Back to our regular program tomorrow with an answer to the "How to summarize" Challenge from the previous post. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: large;"><br /></span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: large;">Keep searching! </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: large;"><br /></span></p>Dan Russellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13603209997260423532noreply@blogger.com1tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4953008377950396317.post-59747380094092764652024-01-24T06:57:00.000-08:002024-01-24T06:57:45.818-08:00SearchResearch Challenge (1/17/24): How can I get an AI to summarize a document? <p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: x-large;"><b><i>We’ve got AI tools all over the place… </i></b></span></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgsv4LEhZSpdVc_ZO4HoW2EuKh2VSSjghXFbDU0Jb8-RzbYpVP0NZMuVflD8CPgnDsMq4mrX8RMpGJ9RBtbk8jdrVA6fSpyuna1tej9bxKK5qvQzKrLvNYCW94Jgp4jDpbUydG_Srf1Z3_Zu53xVSk6OP26xM_JmFhQFa3rPkrCNNiN4QnbL_TXotn6EsA/s1450/summary.png" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><img border="0" data-original-height="918" data-original-width="1450" height="406" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgsv4LEhZSpdVc_ZO4HoW2EuKh2VSSjghXFbDU0Jb8-RzbYpVP0NZMuVflD8CPgnDsMq4mrX8RMpGJ9RBtbk8jdrVA6fSpyuna1tej9bxKK5qvQzKrLvNYCW94Jgp4jDpbUydG_Srf1Z3_Zu53xVSk6OP26xM_JmFhQFa3rPkrCNNiN4QnbL_TXotn6EsA/w640-h406/summary.png" width="640" /></span></a></div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">… now, how can we use them effectively? </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">An important piece of SearchResearch (or more generally, <a href="https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/geotech-cues/making-sense-of-sensemaking-what-it-is-and-what-it-means-for-pandemic-research/#:~:text=Sensemaking%20is%20literally%20the%20act,enough%20to%20enable%20reasonable%20decisions." target="_blank">sensemaking</a>) is finding relevant documents, reading them, and extracting the pieces of knowledge you need to get on with your work. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">I find that I spend roughly half of my research time just browsing, scanning, and reading—it’s what you need to do to understand a topic area enough to do real work. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">But what if we could accelerate the scanning and reading part? What if we could take a long document and summarize it accurately? </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">This is one of the great promises of the current crop of LLMs—they offer the ability to summarize long documents. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Or do they? Will they make the long document into a shorter, more focused work? Or will that tool end up blurring everything into mush? </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">The Challenge for this week is to explore how well an LLM can summarize a document in a way that’s useful for us SearchResearchers. Here’s the Challenge for this week: </span></p><p><span style="color: #990000; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><b>1. How well does your favorite bit of AI technology do at summarizing long texts? What system do you like for summarizing, and why? </b></span></p><p><span style="color: #990000; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><b>2. Test out your summarization method on two long-form texts. </b>First, let’s try that classic gothic tale, Frankenstein by Mary Shelley. (<a href="https://gutenberg.org/cache/epub/84/pg84.txt" target="_blank">Here’s a link to the full text that you can use</a>.) How good is that summary? <b> </b></span></p><p><span style="color: #990000; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><b>3. Second, let’s try your summarization method on a piece of text you might have read, but might have slightly forgotten—Chapter 10 of my book, </b><i style="font-weight: bold;"><a href="https://www.amazon.com/Joy-Search-Google-Insiders-Beyond/dp/0262042878" target="_blank">The Joy of Search</a>, </i><a href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/1S07aL4GVeWdwnENYUVCAiAcRUUF52EdpX36fhLghjcw/edit?usp=sharing" style="font-weight: bold;" target="_blank">link to the full-text of Chapter 10 here</a><b>. </b>"When was oil first discovered in California?"<i style="font-weight: bold;"> </i><span style="font-weight: bold;"> </span>Did your summary method create a good/useful summary? </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Try using your fave summary method on these two works and let us know what you find. We’re interested in practical ways of getting a good summary of long texts. When you do this, think about what your goal is in getting the summary—is it just general interest? Or do you have a particular question in mind? When is a summary useful? (And contrariwise, when does it not work well?) Or, <i>how do you know your summary is a good one?</i> </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Let us know what you've learned in the comments section. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Next week I’ll summarize what we’ve learned, and what techniques seem to work best for SearchResearchers. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Keep searching! </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"> </span></p>Dan Russellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13603209997260423532noreply@blogger.com15tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4953008377950396317.post-34169776990265597802024-01-19T07:07:00.000-08:002024-01-19T07:07:04.203-08:00Special: How do you use LLMs in your SearchResearch<p><span style="color: #990000; font-family: georgia; font-size: x-large;"><b><i> Perhaps... </i></b></span></p><p></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjBdexcGMX3grEMxu0xpmwtDvh232jP0M407gCwZ5ziDviuiUY0GbNZgaNUZiviT5y2RRhphprYQQRVtR1khJCe2zt1DJ4MOPLtHJyjhWe4kXO3W7Bsl3Td7w2E6ZSWLxLdYZzWAa8p1PmXPSt6Suc-T5u2qkYb4an5kPqN0VF9mN1y-Ll7dYoVPewt-4U/s640/AI%20research.jpeg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><img border="0" data-original-height="640" data-original-width="640" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjBdexcGMX3grEMxu0xpmwtDvh232jP0M407gCwZ5ziDviuiUY0GbNZgaNUZiviT5y2RRhphprYQQRVtR1khJCe2zt1DJ4MOPLtHJyjhWe4kXO3W7Bsl3Td7w2E6ZSWLxLdYZzWAa8p1PmXPSt6Suc-T5u2qkYb4an5kPqN0VF9mN1y-Ll7dYoVPewt-4U/w640-h640/AI%20research.jpeg" width="640" /></span></a></div><span style="font-family: georgia;"><br /><span style="font-size: medium;">... I was a little hasty in getting this week's SRS post out. </span></span><div><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;">Not long after I posted it, a few Regular SRS Readers wrote in with their methods of using LLMs. </span></span><p></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Regular Reader <i><b>Unknown</b></i> wrote in the comments that: </span></p><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0 0 0 40px; padding: 0px;"><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed; font-size: medium;">I've found Bard useful for suggesting lines of enquiry. For instance, I asked "When did people in China first realise dolphins are not fish?" and it suggested some ancient Chinese texts which apparently discuss dolphins. I don't know if this info is accurate, but at least it's a good starting point. ChatGPT couldn't help with this query, and conventional searching didn't get me very far. I also asked Bard "Which art historians believe that Johannes Vermeer painted St Praxedis, and which are skeptical?" and it gave me two lists of names - again a good place to start.</span></p></blockquote><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">I like this use of LLMs quite a bit--as a great research starter. This is a great advanced use of an LLM resource. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">And I'd missed<b> <i>cmarlowe</i></b>'s earlier comment that: </span></p><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0 0 0 40px; padding: 0px;"><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed; font-size: medium;">As a retired librarian I use LLMs to provide a basic understanding of new topic or to provide further insights into a topic I am researching and have some knowledge of. One of the features that helps me in researching is the conversations, because it requires me to think what else I should consider in my reference query. But always having that librarian mindset, I do check multiple search tools since often one finds different and helpful information to complete one’s research query and these can include general search engines or research sites. This also helps to avoid misinformation from LLM hallucination by comparing one to another. One unique LLM tool is Poe https://poe.com/ where you can search multiple AI sites and tools. </span></p></blockquote><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Both <i>Unknown</i> and <i>cmarlowe</i> are using LLMs in a sophisticated way--they're using them as <i>lead generators</i>. That is, the LLM gives them ideas about where to look and as useful resources. </span></p><p style="text-align: center;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">*</span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">On the other hand, my friend Aditi sent me three examples where she used ChatGPT to answer questions that would have taken a lot longer with traditional search, and one where it's unclear that ANY search engine would have been able to do anything. This in a nice example of using LLMs to answer questions directly. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Her description of her truly difficult search task was this: </span></p></div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0 0 0 40px; padding: 0px;"><div><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed; font-size: medium;">"[I wanted to] Find out why I remember an old Telugu nursery rhyme my grandma used to sing. I tried so hard with Google all these years and chatGPT helped me finally understand why I loved it and remembered it all these years." </span></p></div></blockquote><div><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Here's their conversation of the first very difficult search task: </span></p><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><p><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;"><b><span style="color: #990000;">Aditi: </span> </b>I'm trying to figure out what an old Telugu nursery rhyme my grandma used to sing to me means. I'm not sure I remember the words right, but if I transcribe it to the best of my memory, might you be able to help me figure it out? </span></p><p><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;"><b><span style="color: #990000;">ChatGPT:</span></b> Absolutely, I'd be happy to help. Please go ahead and transcribe the nursery rhyme as best as you remember it. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;"><b><span style="color: #990000;">Aditi:</span></b> Ok here it is. I remember almost all of it clearly except for the fruit parts, which I've enclosed like (this?). I say fruit because it's about which bird eats which fruit I think? </span></p></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><p><span style="font-family: trebuchet;">Gaagi, gaganaagi </span></p></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><p><span style="font-family: trebuchet;">Ganganagi intilo paalupandi </span></p></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><p><span style="font-family: trebuchet;">Aa pandu thecchi chilakakicchi </span></p></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><p><span style="font-family: trebuchet;">Chilaka thinna pandu (cheedi?) pandu, Hamsa thinna pandu (arati?) pandu, [Baby's name] thinna pandu? Bangaaaara pandu!! </span></p></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><p><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;"><b><span style="color: #990000;">ChatGPT: </span></b> Thank you for sharing the nursery rhyme. It's a charming Telugu rhyme about different birds and the fruits they eat, with a sweet twist at the end involving the baby's name. Here's a rough translation and interpretation: </span></p></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><p><span style="font-family: trebuchet;">"Gaagi, gaganaagi </span></p></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><p><span style="font-family: trebuchet;">Ganganagi intilo paalupandi" </span></p></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><p><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;">This part sets a playful and melodic tone, </span><span style="font-family: "Roboto Condensed";">akin to calling everyone to gather around, </span><span style="font-family: "Roboto Condensed";">possibly imitating the sound of birds. </span></p></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0 0 0 40px; padding: 0px;"><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: trebuchet;">"Aa pandu thecchi chilakakicchi Chilaka thinna pandu (cheedi?) pandu," </span></p></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><p><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;">It talks about bringing a fruit to a parrot (chilaka). The fruit could be "(cheedi?) pandu," where "cheedi" typically means a berry. The exact fruit is uncertain, but it's something the parrot enjoys. </span></p></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0 0 0 40px; padding: 0px;"><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: trebuchet;">"Hamsa thinna pandu (arati?) pandu," </span></p></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><p><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;">This line is about a swan (hamsa) eating a fruit, possibly "(arati?) pandu," which could </span><span style="font-family: "Roboto Condensed";">refer to a banana in Telugu). </span></p></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0 0 0 40px; padding: 0px;"><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: trebuchet;">"[Baby's name] thinna pandu? </span></p></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0 0 0 40px; padding: 0px;"><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: trebuchet;">Bangaaaara pandu!!" </span></p></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><p><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;">This is the delightful twist where the baby's name is inserted, asking what fruit the baby eats, followed by "Bangaaaara pandu," meaning 'golden fruit', symbolizing that the child is precious and loved, like a rare and valuable fruit. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;">It's a nursery rhyme that combines the joy of nature (birds and fruits) with the delight in a </span></p><p><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;">beloved child, turning a simple rhyme into a celebration of the child's presence. The uncertainty in the fruits adds a bit of mystery and room for imagination, which is often a charming aspect of traditional nursery rhymes. </span></p></blockquote><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">This is pretty impressive. Bear in mind that Aditi <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transliteration" target="_blank">transliterated</a> the lyrics of the song she mostly remembered into a English-based transcription. (Normally, Telugu is written in Telugu script, which looks like this: <b>తెలుగు</b>. That's "Telugu" in Telugu characters.) And yet, based on her approximation of the Telugu lyrics, it somehow found the song and was able to find an English parallel translation. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Both Aditi and I did regular searches to try and find such a resource, but we both failed. There's a bit of knowledge buried deep in ChatGPT that includes Telugu nursery rhymes. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">And, in the spirit of double-checking all results (especially surprising results like this), Aditi checked in with her relatives in India and confirmed that what ChatGPT answered is, in fact, correct! </span></p><p style="text-align: center;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">*</span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">In another search task, Aditi was searching for something to do with her young family on a cold day in Denver: </span></p><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><p><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;"><b><span style="color: #990000;">Aditi</span></b>: What's something we can do as a family in Denver right now? It's cold so I was thinking something indoor and fun for a baby </span></p><p><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;"><b><span style="color: #990000;">ChatGPT</span></b>: Visiting the Denver Aquarium could be a delightful experience. Imagine it as a serene underwater world, a tapestry of vibrant marine life, captivating for both you and your young daughter. It's a warm, inviting space, away from the cold, where your baby can marvel at the wonders of aquatic life, creating a tapestry of early, colorful memories. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;"><b><span style="color: #990000;">Aditi</span></b>: Nice! Any other ideas? </span></p><p><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;"><b><span style="color: #990000;">ChatGPT</span></b>: Consider the Denver Children's Museum. It's like a playground of learning and discovery, tailored for little explorers. Your baby would find a world scaled to her size, filled with interactive exhibits that engage the senses and ignite curiosity, while you could enjoy watching her discoveries and growth in such a playful environment. </span></p></blockquote><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">The responses are a little wordy, but they have the advantage of being high quality, and the disadvantage of being just one response.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Note that Aditi used ChatGPT's "<a href="https://www.datacamp.com/tutorial/how-to-use-chat-gpt-custom-instructions" target="_blank">custom instructions</a>" feature to tell ChatGPT ahead of time who she was, about her family, and what kinds of responses she prefers. (That's why the system knew that her family includes a baby.) </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">This is a great way to tune ChatGPT to become more like the information resource that you'd like to use. Aditi gave custom instructions saying that she has a graduate degree in information sciences, and that the replies it gives should be concise and accurate. This has the effect of tuning the responses to be more like what you need. (I'll write more about this in the future--very handy.) </span></p><p><br /></p><h3 style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-size: large;">SearchResearch Lessons</span></h3><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><b><i><span style="color: #990000;">1. You can use an LLM as a smart collaborator that knows a lot about the world and can give useful direction.</span></i></b> This is probably the way I use LLMs most--as an extension of my brain. (I recently asked Bard for </span><span style="font-family: arial; font-size: medium;">[who is a famous writer on voodoo and hallucinogenic plants ]</span><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"> when I couldn't remember a particular writer's name. It listed the top three authors in the field, with their names, and brief bios. The first one is the author whose name I was trying to recall.</span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><b><i><span style="color: #990000;">2. As we saw, even approximations of non-English texts can lead to great answers.</span></i></b> I'm deeply impressed that a transliterated nursery rhyme was able to have ChatGPT find relevant information. </span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><b><i><span style="color: #990000;">3. Using LLM in a conversational mode can be incredibly useful. </span></i></b>Going back and forth with an LLM can focus the results to be more precisely what you seek. </span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">But, as always... double check your results. </span></div><p><br /></p><p><br /></p></div>Dan Russellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13603209997260423532noreply@blogger.com4tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4953008377950396317.post-74353623080425068542024-01-17T14:12:00.000-08:002024-01-17T14:12:47.082-08:00Answer: How do you use LLMs in your SearchResearch?<p><b style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13.2px;"><span style="color: #cc0000; font-family: georgia; font-size: x-large;">So.... </span></b></p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="background: rgb(255, 255, 255); border: 1px solid rgb(238, 238, 238); box-shadow: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.1) 1px 1px 5px; color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13.2px; margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto; padding: 5px; position: relative;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a data-abc="true" href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgTTKaCh4TuEyTFUzu3XypIdXsM3TC_oDzkXqsz2tsX3SWFTD35JU6ju4CA1JfUK__F3uZXqWeFsk-czq7C_YqMVA0TbBjgUbch7Ekcrg7BGo_BJ_3o73rq4AmcQCq8LBRhQFu0cg-PysP3gKS7NeCyQN4AxjTz2nCvT18apFicIeWZybC9b5tyG8oxnY4/s1024/_b8ae9cbd-6997-46f3-95e6-dbed6c65b6aa.jpeg" style="color: #1119cc; margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto; text-decoration-line: none;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1024" data-original-width="1024" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgTTKaCh4TuEyTFUzu3XypIdXsM3TC_oDzkXqsz2tsX3SWFTD35JU6ju4CA1JfUK__F3uZXqWeFsk-czq7C_YqMVA0TbBjgUbch7Ekcrg7BGo_BJ_3o73rq4AmcQCq8LBRhQFu0cg-PysP3gKS7NeCyQN4AxjTz2nCvT18apFicIeWZybC9b5tyG8oxnY4/w640-h640/_b8ae9cbd-6997-46f3-95e6-dbed6c65b6aa.jpeg" style="background: transparent; border: none; box-shadow: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.1) 0px 0px 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative;" width="640" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="font-size: 10.56px; text-align: center;">P/C Dalle3. [an evocative picture of data, data tables, line charts, histograms]<br /><br /></td></tr></tbody></table><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">It looks like many of us are using LLMs (Bard, ChatGPT, etc.) to ask SRS-style questions, especially ones that are a little more difficult to shape into a simple Google-style query. </span></p><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">That's why I asked this week: </span></p><blockquote style="background-color: white; border: none; color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><p><span style="color: #990000; font-family: georgia;"><b><span style="font-size: medium;">1. How have you found yourself using an LLM system (or more generally, any GenAI system) to help solve a real SearchResearch question that you've had? </span></b></span></p></blockquote><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;">I've also gotten LLM help in finding answers to SRS questions that I couldn't figure out how to frame as a "regular" Google search. Bard has answered a couple such questions for me (which I then fact-checked immediately!). While the answers might have a few inaccuracies in the answer, the answers are often great lead-ins to <i>regular</i> SRS. </span></span></p><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;">For instance, I asked Pi (<a href="https://inflection.ai/company" target="_blank">their home page</a>) a question that has been in the news recently: "What's the percentage of homeless people in the US?" Here's what it told me: </span></span></p><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgIr3TBKRzECdDJvvTbSH9sOBYEcKxJKsKog29vbpp2rElSbRLh7gNGD0QK8KhPilteRs9P1jqCREGzm1ycib5q4jZ1heyHsXnPG3EhOu5dxoHn_BXFdl10bE78LOngiEY9Ap0ymvMkmFLzhbf4p3QG2XbJSYXcJL3JohLVNShq_MSwD2ptexMGxw6vIwY/s1022/pi%20answer.png" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1022" data-original-width="892" height="400" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgIr3TBKRzECdDJvvTbSH9sOBYEcKxJKsKog29vbpp2rElSbRLh7gNGD0QK8KhPilteRs9P1jqCREGzm1ycib5q4jZ1heyHsXnPG3EhOu5dxoHn_BXFdl10bE78LOngiEY9Ap0ymvMkmFLzhbf4p3QG2XbJSYXcJL3JohLVNShq_MSwD2ptexMGxw6vIwY/w349-h400/pi%20answer.png" width="349" /></span></a></div><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /><span style="font-family: georgia;"><br /></span></span><p></p><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;">My first reaction was the obvious one--<i>that can't possibly be correct!</i> <i>18%???</i></span></span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia;">The strangeness of the answer drove me to do a regular Google search for some data. At the <a href="https://www.huduser.gov/portal/sites/default/files/pdf/2022-ahar-part-1.pdf" target="_blank">Housing and Urban Development website</a> I found this: "</span><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia;">The Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) counted around 582,000 Americans experiencing homelessness in 2022. That's about 18 per 10,000 people in the US, up about 2,000 people from 2020." </span></span></span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Or, if you do the math, that's around 0.18% of the US population. </span></span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">When you look at multiple sites, you'll keep seeing that figure "18 per 10,000 people," which I could imagine an LLM rendering as "18%" in some twisted way. Arggh!! </span></span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Interestingly, when I did this on Bard and ChatGPT on the same day, they ALSO quoted 18% as the homeless rate. </span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><b><span style="color: #990000;"><i>However</i>... </span></b><span style="color: #222222;">if you ask all of the LLMs this same question today (1 week after they told me it was 18%), they all get it right: the real percentage is 0.18%. </span></span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="color: #222222; font-size: medium;">That's great... but also worrying. I'm glad they're in alignment with more official sources, but the underlying data didn't change--some training must have kicked in. </span></span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="color: #222222; font-size: medium;">You can't count on consistency with an LLM. </span></span></p><p style="background-color: white; text-align: center;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">* </span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">But... I find myself increasingly turning to LLMs to answer questions that really are difficult to frame as a search query. Previously I wrote about finding "<a href="https://searchresearch1.blogspot.com/2023/04/using-llms-to-find-amazing-words-that.html" target="_blank">Other words that are like cottagecore</a>" as an example of the kind of task that an LLM can do well. They can take fairly abstract language ideas (e.g., "what words are like these words...<insert list>") and come up with something fairly useful. This is a great capability that will let us take SearchResearch questions in new directions. </span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">You can ask follow-up questions without having to include everything you've found out thus far. THAT is a pretty big advantage, especially for more complex tasks that take more than 2 or 3 queries to answer. </span></p><p style="background-color: white; text-align: center;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">* </span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia;">This past week I found a really interesting paper on our topic by some folks at Microsoft Research. In their Arxiv paper, <a href="https://arxiv.org/pdf/2307.03744v1.pdf" target="_blank">"Comparing Traditional and LLM-based Search for Consumer Choice: </a></span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia;"><a href="https://arxiv.org/pdf/2307.03744v1.pdf" target="_blank">A Randomized Experiment"</a> they compared ordinary search tasks where some people used a "traditional" search engine, while another set used an "LLM-based" search engine. (The LLM was ChatGPT and was primed with an extensive prompt <i>before</i> people started their searching.) </span></span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;">Intriguingly, they found a couple of interesting things: </span></span></p><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><p style="background-color: white; text-align: left;"><span style="color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed; font-size: medium;">* people spent less time doing LLM search than trad search,</span></span></p><p style="background-color: white; text-align: left;"><span style="color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed; font-size: medium;">* they did fewer, but more complex, searches that trad search,</span></span></p><p style="background-color: white; text-align: left;"><span style="color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed; font-size: medium;">* on the whole, the two conditions were just about as accurate (but see below), </span></span></p><p style="background-color: white; text-align: left;"><span style="color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed; font-size: medium;">* the searcher's <i>perceptions</i> of accuracy were pretty high, even when the answers weren't great.</span></span></p></blockquote><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;">They then did a nice intervention to see if they could color-code uncertain results in the LLMs output to see if it would help make everything more accurate. The result? Yes, significantly so. (Although they still had to have a magic oracle know that the results were low-quality!) </span></span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;">However, one of the Challenges they had their participants do was intentionally a hard question that they knew the LLM would give terrible answers. But it didn't matter much--people believe LLMs beyond what they should. </span></span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;">That's not a huge surprise, but a good cautionary note for us. <b>You still need to check</b> to make sure that the results you're getting actually jibe with reality. </span></span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">So... what do I use LLM search for these days? I'm asking it a lot of <i>knowledge summarization</i> questions. Things like "Give me an overview of how epigenetics works in humans. Tell me assuming I have a college level degree of genetics knowledge." </span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">With this prompt, ChatGPT does a pretty good job. Here's the opening paragraph of its response: </span></p><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0 0 0 40px; padding: 0px;"><p style="background-color: white; text-align: left;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Roboto Condensed; font-size: medium;">Epigenetics is a fascinating field of study that explores the mechanisms by which gene expression is regulated without altering the underlying DNA sequence. It plays a crucial role in development, cellular differentiation, and the adaptation of organisms to their environment. Here's an overview of how epigenetics works in humans, tailored to someone with a college-level understanding of genetics... </span></p></blockquote><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">On the other hand, if you ask for an explanation at a 6th grade level of biology knowledge, you'll see: </span></p><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0 0 0 40px; padding: 0px;"><p style="background-color: white; text-align: left;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Roboto Condensed; font-size: medium;">Alright, let's imagine our body is like a huge library. This library (our body) has lots of books (cells), and each book has the same set of instructions or recipes (DNA) for making you, well, you! But even though all the books have the same recipes, not all recipes are used in every book. Some recipes are for making eye color, some for hair color, and others for how tall you'll be. Now, epigenetics is like having special bookmarks or notes in those books that decide which recipes are going to be used or ignored....</span></p></blockquote><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">These kinds of summaries are incredibly useful, and much more sophisticated than the abstracts / snippets beneath each web result on the SERP. The ability to ask for more-or-less detail in the prompt is incredibly useful. </span></p><p style="background-color: white; text-align: center;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">* </span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><i>On the other hand</i>... you still have to be careful about the simplest of things. </span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><span style="color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia;">If you ask Bard </span><b><span style="font-family: arial;">[ how many cups are in a gallon? ]</span></b><span style="font-family: georgia;"> it will reply: "</span></span><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia;">There are 16 cups in a gallon. This applies to both US liquid gallons and imperial gallons, although they have slightly different volumes." </span></span></span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia;">Of course, that doesn't make sense. An imperial gallon is 1.2 US gallons, so they can't have the same number of cups! This is a classic measurement blunder: there are, in fact, 16 <i>Imperial cups</i> in an <i>Imperial gallon</i>. (For the record: There are 19.2 US cups in an Imperial gallon.) As always, check your facts... and check your units! (And for the record, ChatGPT explains this: "</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia;">However, it's worth noting that the imperial cup and the US cup are not the same in terms of volume: </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia;">1 Imperial gallon = 16 Imperial cups, </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia;">1 Imperial cup = 10 Imperial fluid ounces.") </span></span></p><h3 style="background-color: white; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">SearchResearch Lessons</span></h3><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><b><i><span style="color: #990000;">1. It's worth reiterating that you shouldn't assume that the output of an LLM is accurate. </span></i></b>Think of it as incredibly handy and useful, but NOT authoritative. Tattoo that on your hand if you need to, but never forget it. </span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><i><b><span style="color: #990000;">2. Always double check. </span></b></i> As we saw, LLMs will make bone-headed mistakes that sound good... so since you're not assuming that the output of an LLM is accurate, make sure you double-or-triple source everything. Do it now, more than ever. </span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: large;">Keep searching! </span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"> </span></p><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div>Dan Russellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13603209997260423532noreply@blogger.com7tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4953008377950396317.post-68305045231345679852024-01-10T06:34:00.000-08:002024-01-10T09:15:30.119-08:00SearchResearch Challenge (1/10/24): How do you use LLMs in your SearchResearch?<p><b><span style="color: #cc0000; font-family: georgia; font-size: x-large;"> It's a New Year! </span></b></p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgTTKaCh4TuEyTFUzu3XypIdXsM3TC_oDzkXqsz2tsX3SWFTD35JU6ju4CA1JfUK__F3uZXqWeFsk-czq7C_YqMVA0TbBjgUbch7Ekcrg7BGo_BJ_3o73rq4AmcQCq8LBRhQFu0cg-PysP3gKS7NeCyQN4AxjTz2nCvT18apFicIeWZybC9b5tyG8oxnY4/s1024/_b8ae9cbd-6997-46f3-95e6-dbed6c65b6aa.jpeg" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1024" data-original-width="1024" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgTTKaCh4TuEyTFUzu3XypIdXsM3TC_oDzkXqsz2tsX3SWFTD35JU6ju4CA1JfUK__F3uZXqWeFsk-czq7C_YqMVA0TbBjgUbch7Ekcrg7BGo_BJ_3o73rq4AmcQCq8LBRhQFu0cg-PysP3gKS7NeCyQN4AxjTz2nCvT18apFicIeWZybC9b5tyG8oxnY4/w640-h640/_b8ae9cbd-6997-46f3-95e6-dbed6c65b6aa.jpeg" width="640" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">P/C Dalle3. [an evocative picture of data, data tables, line charts, histograms]<br /><br /></td></tr></tbody></table><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Let's reflect on what SearchResearch is all about... </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">I started this blog back in January, 2010 with <a href="https://searchresearch1.blogspot.com/2010/01/about-this-blog-why-searchresearch.html">About this blog--Why SearchReSearch?</a> That was 5,093 days ago. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">So far, there have been 1,374 posts, with 4.75M views and 13,700 comments. We're running around 40K blog views / month, and that doesn't include the various syndicated versions of the blog. If you include those, I'm <a href="https://searchresearch1.blogspot.com/2018/09/searchresearch-challenge-9518-can-you.html" target="_blank">Fermi Estimating</a> the readership at 50K /month. That's a decent number (roughly 1,660 people / day). </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">As longtime SRS readers know, one of my goals was to use the blog as an effective prompt to write a book. That book--<i><a href="https://www.amazon.com/Joy-Search-Google-Insiders-Beyond/dp/0262042878" target="_blank">The Joy of Search: A Google Insider's Guide to Going Beyond the Basics</a>--</i>came out in September 2019 and has done reasonably well. At least well enough to be translated into Korean and Chinese, as well as go into a paperback edition. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">As my Regular Readers also know, I'm working on another book ("Unanticipated Consequences") which I'm trying to finish up in the first part of this year, 2024. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Writing a regular blog is a serious investment of time and energy, at least it is for me. On average, I spend around 4-8 hours each week bringing you the most interesting SearchResearch tidbits I can find. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">But it's a big time commitment, and I'd like to use those hours to work on the new book. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">So I'm going to try an experiment--scaling back a bit, trying to do each blog post in two hours or less. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">To do that, I'm going to try to involve you Regular Readers a bit more in the search for insights. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">As we've discussed, the advent of Generative AI is promising to radically change the SearchResearch process. It has the ability to give us new insights quickly (<a href="https://searchresearch1.blogspot.com/2023/04/using-llms-to-find-amazing-words-that.html" target="_blank">an example</a>), and also to generate convincing-sounding nonsense with ease (<a href="https://searchresearch1.blogspot.com/2023/04/when-you-ask-llm-silly-question.html" target="_blank">an example</a>). </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">I know that many of you are using ChatGPT or Bard or Llama to answer questions, so I want to tap into the collective intelligence that SRS Regular Readers can bring to the discussion. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">I've asked this before in general (<a href="https://searchresearch1.blogspot.com/2023/07/searchresearch-challenge-71221-how-can.html" target="_blank">How can we use LLMs to search even better?</a>) and for the specific case of medical searches (<a href="https://searchresearch1.blogspot.com/2023/10/searchresearch-challenge-10423-how.html" target="_blank">How might we best use LLMs for online medical research?</a>). But if there's one thing to know about LLMs and Generative AI in general, it's that this field is changing fast--<i>really</i> fast--fast as a flash rifling down the electric blue gun barrel into a sea of new-age synth-pop psychedelia. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">So... </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Our SearchResearch Challenge of the week is this is to revisit this: </span></p><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="color: #990000; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><b>1. How have you found yourself using an LLM system (or more generally, any GenAI system) to help solve a real SearchResearch question that you've had? </b></span></p></blockquote><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">I've told you before that I've used ChatGPT to help me with some data table manipulation. I've solved a few problems in a minute that would have taken me an hour or more to do with my regular programming skills. Those are huge savings. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">I've also gotten LLM help in finding answers to SRS questions that I couldn't figure out how to frame as a "regular" Google search. Bard has answered a couple such questions for me (which I then fact-checked immediately!). </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">We all want to know what you've found to be useful. What has worked for you in the past few months? </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Alternatively, what has NOT worked out for you? </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">We're all ears here at SRS! </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Keep searching. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></p><p></p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEga7kjDz4VKdjABIXosIskhvwJLTZxcf_7nH1qrbucScvKL7GQZY9JdDhuYrxEshE_UhBQRbgsv0ZleDXUedYWwW7J3SS977eMbBuV4-dQ4PX26OB6gCvMP3bDm0xNTOnzeRZwY_YwvntJlYVwX4pEofZ3TyKC4mU2AOnJxSdZcrwI7w3rzrq1TPvOaB9I/s1254/Kangaroo%20listening%20blog.png" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1254" data-original-width="1232" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEga7kjDz4VKdjABIXosIskhvwJLTZxcf_7nH1qrbucScvKL7GQZY9JdDhuYrxEshE_UhBQRbgsv0ZleDXUedYWwW7J3SS977eMbBuV4-dQ4PX26OB6gCvMP3bDm0xNTOnzeRZwY_YwvntJlYVwX4pEofZ3TyKC4mU2AOnJxSdZcrwI7w3rzrq1TPvOaB9I/w628-h640/Kangaroo%20listening%20blog.png" width="628" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">P/C Duet AI (Google Slides) [kangaroo on top of piles of text listening ]</td></tr></tbody></table><br /><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span><p></p><p><br /></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia;"><br /></span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia;"><br /></span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia;"><br /></span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia;"><br /></span></p>Dan Russellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13603209997260423532noreply@blogger.com5tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4953008377950396317.post-44124141894208910642023-12-22T21:57:00.000-08:002023-12-22T21:57:42.443-08:00Answer: What makes a national dish? <p><span style="font-size: x-large;"> </span><b style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><i><span style="color: #bf9000; font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: x-large;">If fondue isn't a national dish, </span></span><span style="color: #bf9000; font-family: georgia; font-size: x-large;"> </span></i></b></p><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13.2px;"></p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="background: rgb(255, 255, 255); border: 1px solid rgb(238, 238, 238); box-shadow: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.1) 1px 1px 5px; color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13.2px; margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto; padding: 5px; position: relative;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a data-abc="true" href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEi-vql3Dkrh7-hdkp3hyuXQuaywcIOZv2tV3M4dslx8paVzWeG7cboOy1mNmH2U_XaAwW9KP2UPsfVaPV7Sk2y7nOjIDt5qjx5zLfXzvOc_n3-nsbxrhqdrwBd-_IJLgzWBZlRGCPfGKfdv8RoYRKpfwQTcOTclfGyqEmtQcSe7KhqKNlXnn0I0NOEcK1s/s1926/Dan%20fondue.jpg" style="color: #1119cc; margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto; text-decoration-line: none;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1926" data-original-width="1488" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEi-vql3Dkrh7-hdkp3hyuXQuaywcIOZv2tV3M4dslx8paVzWeG7cboOy1mNmH2U_XaAwW9KP2UPsfVaPV7Sk2y7nOjIDt5qjx5zLfXzvOc_n3-nsbxrhqdrwBd-_IJLgzWBZlRGCPfGKfdv8RoYRKpfwQTcOTclfGyqEmtQcSe7KhqKNlXnn0I0NOEcK1s/w494-h640/Dan%20fondue.jpg" style="background: transparent; border: none; box-shadow: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.1) 0px 0px 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative;" width="494" /></span></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="font-size: 10.56px; text-align: center;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><i>I'm fond of fondue</i>. </span></td></tr></tbody></table><span style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br />... what is it? </span></span><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"></p><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Well, it IS a national dish, but as I mentioned last week, fondue was popularized as a Swiss national food by the <b>Swiss Cheese Union</b> (<i>Schweizerische Käseunion</i>) beginning in the 1930s as a way of using up the local excess of cheese. The Swiss Cheese Union created pseudo-regional recipes as part of the "spiritual defence of Switzerland" before World War II to help out the cheese makers and the dairy industry. (For more details, see this <a href="https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/how-fondue-and--cheese-fever--conquered-the-world/47601148" target="_blank">wonderful article about the cheese cartel that made fondue an international hit</a>. Or, it you want to listen, this <a href="https://www.npr.org/2015/04/23/401655790/how-a-swiss-cheese-cartel-made-fondue-popular" target="_blank">Planet Money podcast about the Swiss Cheese Union</a>.) </span></p><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"> This is all fascinating backstory to this week's Challenge. What ELSE has been marketed as an authentic food? I put the Challenge like this: </span></p><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222; text-align: left;"><span style="color: #990000;"><b><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">1. What other national foods have become popular as the result of intense marketing? (I'm especially interested in foods that are presented as being "of the people," but are, in fact, commercial successes driven by clever advertising?) Can you find one or two? </span></b></span></p></blockquote><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">I thought this might be a great question for the LLMs, and so I tried multiple attempts to get ChatGPT, Claude, and Bard to give me an answer. </span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia;">I'll spare you all of the prompts I created, but basically, I got very little. With prompts like "</span><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia;">what well-known national foods are actually the product of marketing campaigns?" I learned about marketing successes (e.g., Campbell's soups; Chiquita bananas; McDonalds hamburgers), but little about foods that are associated with particular countries (as fondue is with Switzerland). </span></span></span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><b>Bard: </b>Of the suggestions Bard made:</span></span><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"> Poutine (Canada); Big Mac (US); and </span></span><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Hambúrguer Artesanal (Brazil). Those are okay, I guess, but the marketing push behind each is a bit lackadaisical... nothing like the Swiss Cheese Union. </span></span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><b>ChatGPT:</b> Slightly better: American fast food as a category (US); Fettuccine Alfredo (Italy); Sushi (Japan)... these are all popular foods, but none that were driven by clever advertising or marketing. </span></span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">One of the things that became clear to me was that I was a little ambiguous about what my SRS goal actually should be. Was I looking for well-known <i>national</i> foods (like poutine or Big Macs), or was I looking for national foods that reached success <i>because of </i>an advertising/marketing campaign? </span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">As I often say here in SRS, you've got to be clear about what your research goal actually is so you'll know success when you see it. </span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Naturally, it's okay to learn-as-you-go, but at some point you have to figure out what success will mean. </span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">I decided that I really wanted a <i>well-known national food that became prominent internationally because of an intense marketing or advertising campaign.</i> </span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><i style="color: #222222;"><b>What did work?</b></i><span style="color: #222222;"><b> </b> </span><span style="color: #222222;">Several friends wrote to me to suggest foods that they learned were market campaign-driven: SPAM, chicken tikka masala, Vegemite, and even peanut butter were all suggested as advertising-driven successes of national foods. </span></span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Reading up on these I found that: </span></p><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: verdana;"><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spam_(food)" target="_blank">SPAM</a> was given a big boost by the maker, Hormel, as the result of SPAM's ubiquity during World War II. Advertising was a big component of pushing SPAM onto the global stage. (Massive distribution during World War II didn't hurt either, making SPAM incredibly popular in Oceania.) </span></span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: verdana;"><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tikka_masala">Chicken tikka masala</a>, while immensely popular, doesn't seem to have been driven by advertising. It's clearly a very British product that has become popular by word-of-mouth and news stories, even though it seems very Indian. </span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: verdana;"><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegemite" target="_blank">Vegemite</a>, the intensely-flavored Australian yeast extract spread, WAS intensely marketed at the product's initial production (in the 1920s) and led to vegemite becoming a distinctly Australian food. </span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: verdana;">While <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peanut_butter" target="_blank">peanut butter</a> is often thought of as American, its invention is credited to three people with early patents on the production of modern peanut butter. (1) Marcellus Gilmore Edson of Montreal, Quebec, Canada, obtained the first patent for a method of producing peanut butter from roasted peanuts using heated surfaces in 1884. (2) A businessman from St. Louis, George Bayle, produced and sold peanut butter in the form of a snack food in 1894. And (3) John Harvey Kellogg (yes, THAT Kellogg) was issued a patent for a "Process of Producing Alimentary Products" in 1898 with peanuts, although he boiled the nuts rather than roasting them. There's been a fair bit of marketing, but again, nothing quite as intense as the Swiss push on fondue. </span></p></blockquote><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">But how can we find all of these--and more!--by searching? </span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">My first regular Google search was: </span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><b><span style="font-family: arial;"><span style="color: #222222; font-size: large;"> [ </span><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="color: #222222; font-size: medium;">national dish food marketing campaign ] </span></span></span></b></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="color: #222222; font-size: medium;">which led me to a fascinating book, "<a href="https://www.amazon.com/National-Dish-Around-History-Meaning/dp/0735223165?tag=actonxsaveur-20&asc_source=browser&asc_refurl=https://www.saveur.com/culture/national-dish-anya-von-bremzen/&ascsubtag=0000SV0000159800D1706094820231220122013WWW.SAVEUR.COM%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20" target="_blank">National Dish: </a></span></span><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="color: #222222; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://www.amazon.com/National-Dish-Around-History-Meaning/dp/0735223165" target="_blank">Around the World in Search of Food, History, and the Meaning of Home</a>" by </span></span><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="color: #222222; font-size: medium;">Anya von Bremzen. This is basically a compendium of the backstories of various foods, showing how sometimes national foods have a messy beginning. For instance, she points out that </span></span><span style="font-size: medium;">Andalusian gazpacho were not just simple Spanish regional foods, but dishes historically cooked across the country. She points out that<i> La Sección Femenina</i>, the women’s branch of Spain’s fascist movement, identified some foods (like gazpacho) with specific regions, as part of its work to create “a sanitized, politically acceptable form of cultural diversity.”</span></span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">I also found the <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_dish" target="_blank">Wikipedia page on National Dishes</a> (have to admit that I wasn't expecting this page to exist--there must be a lot of foodies among Wikipedians). Scanning that list shows a lot of national dishes, some of which I recognized as very popular. </span></span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">I spot checked a bunch of them: <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiener_schnitzel" target="_blank">Wiener schnitzel</a> (Austria), <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empanada" target="_blank">empanadas</a> (Bolivia), <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peking_duck" target="_blank">Peking duck</a> (China), <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pot-au-feu" target="_blank">pot-au-feu</a> (France) and about ten others. The nearly all of the national dishes I checked became national dishes over the course of great spans of time, without any particular interference or promotion. They really are of the land and the people. </span></span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">However, two Japanese foods that are known world-wide qualify as marketing/advertising driven: </span></span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramen" target="_blank">Ramen</a> is a massive international success that was driven in the US by the introduction of instant ramen noodles (beloved by college students), and by Chef David Chang's introduction of ramen at <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Momofuku_(restaurants)" target="_blank">Momofuku</a> in New York City in 2004, driven by a <a href="https://www.myojousa.com/blog/ramen-boom/" target="_blank">clever influencer campaign</a>. (Incidentally, Momofuku Ando was the name of the inventor of the instant ramen noodle.) </span></span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Likewise, but to a lesser extent, <a href="https://foodworthwritingfor.com/2018/08/28/the-ascent-of-sushi/" target="_blank">sushi</a> seems to have become an international success by marketing, although that effort was a bit hodge-podge with many small pushes from multiple players rather than one large company. </span></span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">I found those through friends (thanks, friends!) and by manual work from the National Dishes Wikipedia page. </span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">But then I had the thought, what if I limited my previous search to just Wikipedia? Like this: </span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: arial; font-size: medium;"><b> [ site:Wikipedia.org </b></span><b style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="font-family: arial;"><span style="color: #222222; font-size: medium;">national dish food marketing campaign ] </span></span></b></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">What would I find? </span></span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Answer: Several additional dishes and a bunch that you can look up on your own. MY favorites from this search... </span></span></p><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: verdana;"><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ploughman%27s_lunch" target="_blank">Ploughman's Lunch</a> (Britain, marketing campaign by the Cheese Bureau and the Milk Marketing Board, shades of the </span></span><i style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;">Schweizerische Käseunion!</span></i><span style="background-color: transparent; color: #222222; font-family: verdana;">) </span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: verdana;"><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_Love_Our_Lamb" target="_blank">Lamb</a> (Australia, marketing by <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_Love_Our_Lamb" target="_blank">Meat and Livestock Australia</a>, the MLA)</span></span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: verdana;"><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KFC_advertising" target="_blank">Kentucky Fried Chicken</a> (USA, marketing by KFC, which scored a massive success in making <a href="https://edition.cnn.com/travel/article/kfc-christmas-tradition-japan/index.html" target="_blank">KFC the default Christmas dinner in Japan</a>)</span></span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: verdana;"><a href="https://www.historyoasis.com/post/coca-cola-marketing-history" target="_blank">Coca-Cola</a> (USA, the Coke company has run one of the most successful marketing campaigns in history for over 100 years)</span></span></p></blockquote><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span></p><h2 style="background-color: white; text-align: left;"><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">SearchResearch Lessons </span></span></h2><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><b><i><span style="color: #990000;">1. LLMs sometimes just don't deliver. </span></i></b><span style="color: #222222;"> I spent at least two hours trying to convince Bard and ChatGPT to give me something useful. And yes, I tried all of the clever prompt engineering tricks I could think of, but nothing seemed to work. Ah well... they're not the universal solution to all known problems. </span></span></span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><b><i><span style="color: #990000;">2. Friends! </span></i></b><span style="color: #222222;">I was happily impressed by the number of friends who had suggestions. Don't ever underestimate the value of a good social network. I got text messages from some friends who'd seen the post, some comments on my other networks (e.g, LinkedIn or Facebook), and a couple of direct emails. Ah, friends. Good to have them as an extension to my brain. </span></span></span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><b><i><span style="color: #990000;">3. Wikipedia lists. </span></i></b><span style="color: #222222;"> I should know by now that there is a list for almost everything. National foods is not an exception to this rule. Remember to look for "list of" something when you're searching for a category. </span></span></span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><b><i><span style="color: #990000;">4. Use site: over a large resource.</span></i></b><span style="color: #222222;"> For instance, my use of my previous search query, when restricted to Wikipedia actually helped me find a few new suggestions. Don't forget the power of limiting your search! </span></span></p><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #660000; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">As we close out the year, I'm going to take a couple of weeks off and start anew in 2024. I'll be moving back from Switzerland to California in the next few days and restart my life there. It's been wonderful to explore Zürich and the Swiss countryside from a different perspective, that of someone who is new to the place--a new country to discover, what more could you ask for as a Christmas present. That's what I got, and I hope you enjoyed learning a bit about the place as much as I did. </span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #660000; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">See you in January, 2024. Have a wonderful holiday season and New Year! </span></p></blockquote><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span></p><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Keep searching! </span></p>Dan Russellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13603209997260423532noreply@blogger.com21tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4953008377950396317.post-22064644222823744622023-12-13T12:33:00.000-08:002023-12-13T12:33:04.112-08:00SearchResearch Challenge (12/13/23): What makes a national dish?<p><b><i><span style="color: #bf9000; font-family: georgia; font-size: x-large;"> When in Switzerland, </span></i></b></p><p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEi-vql3Dkrh7-hdkp3hyuXQuaywcIOZv2tV3M4dslx8paVzWeG7cboOy1mNmH2U_XaAwW9KP2UPsfVaPV7Sk2y7nOjIDt5qjx5zLfXzvOc_n3-nsbxrhqdrwBd-_IJLgzWBZlRGCPfGKfdv8RoYRKpfwQTcOTclfGyqEmtQcSe7KhqKNlXnn0I0NOEcK1s/s1926/Dan%20fondue.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1926" data-original-width="1488" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEi-vql3Dkrh7-hdkp3hyuXQuaywcIOZv2tV3M4dslx8paVzWeG7cboOy1mNmH2U_XaAwW9KP2UPsfVaPV7Sk2y7nOjIDt5qjx5zLfXzvOc_n3-nsbxrhqdrwBd-_IJLgzWBZlRGCPfGKfdv8RoYRKpfwQTcOTclfGyqEmtQcSe7KhqKNlXnn0I0NOEcK1s/w494-h640/Dan%20fondue.jpg" width="494" /></span></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><i>I'm fond of fondue</i>. </span></td></tr></tbody></table><span style="font-family: georgia;"><br /><span style="font-size: medium;">... you have to have fondue. </span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Something I learned today…. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Apparently, fondue has been around for a while, at least since 1875, when the first fondue recipe was published as a town-dweller's dish from the lowlands of the western, French-speaking parts of Switzerland. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">It </span><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: large;">was popularized as a Swiss national dish by the Swiss Cheese Union (</span><i style="font-family: georgia; font-size: large;">Schweizerische Käseunion</i><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: large;">) beginning in the 1930s as a way of increasing local overproduction of cheese. Too much cheese, too few cheese-eaters--the obvious fix is to figure out a way to increase local demand for local cheese.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">And thus it came to pass that the Swiss Cheese Union created pseudo-regional recipes as part of the "spiritual defence of Switzerland" before World War II. After wartime rationing ended, the Swiss Cheese Union continued its marketing campaign, sending fondue sets to military regiments and event organizers across Switzerland as a way to spread the message of social cheese eating. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">As a consequence, fondue is not just popular, but also now a symbol of Swiss unity. The marketing campaign successfully associates fondue with Swiss mountains, good times, and healthy outdoor winter sports.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Ever since those heady days, fondue has been promoted aggressively in Switzerland, with slogans like "<i>La fondue crée la bonne humeur"</i> ('fondue creates a good mood') and, in Swiss German, "<i>Fondue isch guet und git e gueti Luune</i>" ('fondue is good and creates a good mood') – usually abbreviated as the tongue-twister "<a href="https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIGUGEGL" target="_blank">figugegl</a>." </span></p><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0 0 0 40px; padding: 0px;"><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;"><span style="font-size: x-small;"><i>Background</i>: "<a href="https://web.archive.org/web/20100720131727/http:/blog.swisster.com/food_corner/page/2/" target="_blank">History of Cheese Fondue</a>" (Oct 29, 2009) – an interview with Isabelle Raboud-Schuele, by Gail Mangold-Vine. Originally published in www.Automnales.ch (http://www.automnales.ch/) </span><span style="font-size: x-small;">Raboud-Schuele is the curator at the Alimentarium Food Museum in Vevey.</span></span></p></blockquote><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"> This is all fascinating backstory to this week's Challenge. My illusion of fondue as the simple national dish of Switzerland has been shattered. What I thought of as a regional, rustic dish of the commonfolk has been revealed to be the result of rather clever marketing. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">And <i>that </i>thought made me wonder: </span></p><p><span style="color: #990000; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><b>1. What other national foods have become popular as the result of intense marketing? (I'm especially interested in foods that are presented as being "of the people," but are, in fact, commercial successes driven by clever advertising?) Can you find one or two? </b></span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Of course, as always, we're deeply curious about HOW you found these other popular campaign-driven foods! Let us know! </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Keep searching! </span></p>Dan Russellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13603209997260423532noreply@blogger.com17tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4953008377950396317.post-53423204276635613712023-12-09T04:19:00.000-08:002023-12-09T21:55:46.824-08:00Answer: What type of paintings are these? (Swiss Mystery #4)<p><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;"> </span><b style="background-color: white; color: #990000;"><i><span style="font-size: x-large;">Curiouser and curiouser ... </span></i></b></span></p><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"></p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="background: rgb(255, 255, 255); border: 1px solid rgb(238, 238, 238); box-shadow: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.1) 1px 1px 5px; color: #222222; margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto; padding: 5px; position: relative;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><img border="0" data-original-height="4032" data-original-width="3024" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEg-4IEVJOEwd90Ycvdxmq55sOOlPrXlTua93N_4-Fr2qPbAJu6gsXDLIGAaWvf1HKuBXEH4qIhPIo0tTkseqi8UMyiMcPVWBJZHmlk5Az3aU75X4y7cVjSYlY3MkDWrGG5Zwa5EWkFl-JOYaP94185zPTARGoPBrBIDxpXyiXmZnwZS88k7SB9P5ePqYKg/w480-h640/IMG_6643.HEIC" style="background: transparent; border: none; box-shadow: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.1) 0px 0px 0px; margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto; padding: 0px;" width="480" /></span></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><span style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: x-small;">A knight striding with flag, bear, and sword. (Bern, Switzerland)</span></td></tr></tbody></table><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"></p><div class="separator" style="background-color: white; clear: both; color: #222222; text-align: center;"><a data-abc="true" href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEg-4IEVJOEwd90Ycvdxmq55sOOlPrXlTua93N_4-Fr2qPbAJu6gsXDLIGAaWvf1HKuBXEH4qIhPIo0tTkseqi8UMyiMcPVWBJZHmlk5Az3aU75X4y7cVjSYlY3MkDWrGG5Zwa5EWkFl-JOYaP94185zPTARGoPBrBIDxpXyiXmZnwZS88k7SB9P5ePqYKg/s4032/IMG_6643.HEIC" style="color: #1119cc; margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em; text-decoration-line: none;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"></span></a></div><span style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br />I'm officially a faculty member at the University of Zürich, and as such, you'd think I'd understand lots about Swiss culture. But I'm a newbie, a recent (and temporary) immigrant. I'm heading back to California at the end of the year. </span></span><div><span style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span></div><div><span style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">But one of the great things about traveling is the chance to see the world through new eyes. Last week I posed a simple question: What are these paintings on buildings that I'm seeing everywhere in Switzerland. </span></span></div><div><span style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span></div><div><span style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">In the past week I've asked several Swiss folks what they'd call these things, and surprisingly, most of them said "I don't know... <i>paintings?"</i> It's not something they've thought about much, they're just part of the background, they've always been there. But to me, as an outsider, see the everyday and think it's extraordinary.</span></span></div><div><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Here are a few examples: </span></p><div class="separator" style="background-color: white; clear: both; color: #222222; text-align: center;"><a data-abc="true" href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhREAteAPe92TWYEgtl4ljdiUvO7PbaZnMD2C6Dmh5PBpbAoM5kRIiw18bodhtrCDC1I6n6Y9dr8cGGptpOjBQkkb8Ak5p4R1oo0hCwlp_4BOZtP8nJ5kY_rjNfwQTY1rnBF73XfNe13XT38RRO9F78RtuU0rpQtJZ7bbStAE-mXoPn1Ba2AY6Cy5nZ7ss/s1402/Lucern%20knight.jpg" style="color: #1119cc; margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em; text-decoration-line: none;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1402" data-original-width="782" height="400" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhREAteAPe92TWYEgtl4ljdiUvO7PbaZnMD2C6Dmh5PBpbAoM5kRIiw18bodhtrCDC1I6n6Y9dr8cGGptpOjBQkkb8Ak5p4R1oo0hCwlp_4BOZtP8nJ5kY_rjNfwQTY1rnBF73XfNe13XT38RRO9F78RtuU0rpQtJZ7bbStAE-mXoPn1Ba2AY6Cy5nZ7ss/w223-h400/Lucern%20knight.jpg" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; border: 1px solid rgb(238, 238, 238); box-shadow: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.1) 1px 1px 5px; padding: 5px; position: relative;" width="223" /></span></a></div><span style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span><div class="separator" style="background-color: white; clear: both; color: #222222; text-align: center;"><a data-abc="true" href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiEjaQZH7h6fUW2R_18JJ4izv8xLhJoxt4VImxqLDRqbY3KugBQ8JVuN7bzacWJRTZH1Flp6hzeU28Y5JoEbSBMzSb3c7tbJTbMSKh6EUUbf7eIMytzBXP8ejnmY3o-MnMJVuNMhPU5GXXyRrfwKILnU9_XuXMqt4rJ_fRYOMICay35hJjVIojqxRRis_k/s1280/St%20Gallen%20bakery.jpg" style="color: #1119cc; margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em; text-decoration-line: none;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><img border="0" data-original-height="960" data-original-width="1280" height="300" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiEjaQZH7h6fUW2R_18JJ4izv8xLhJoxt4VImxqLDRqbY3KugBQ8JVuN7bzacWJRTZH1Flp6hzeU28Y5JoEbSBMzSb3c7tbJTbMSKh6EUUbf7eIMytzBXP8ejnmY3o-MnMJVuNMhPU5GXXyRrfwKILnU9_XuXMqt4rJ_fRYOMICay35hJjVIojqxRRis_k/w400-h300/St%20Gallen%20bakery.jpg" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; border: 1px solid rgb(238, 238, 238); box-shadow: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.1) 1px 1px 5px; padding: 5px; position: relative;" width="400" /></span></a></div><span style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span><div class="separator" style="background-color: white; clear: both; color: #222222; text-align: center;"><a data-abc="true" href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgW-0Rdfjwy00RasS74V-eBPhP57CQmTvWzql_1kvQkqgPH4I2JRQylN262BtkPrkbAX7rotvKybvp7OFr1nCiGhaYQMuFfOVsbKEpSJ9mxmwhdFtrwWDnUP33CnSTFpOKVJD5-Aw_cm9dnYkNlh2BN5-J3AnMBg9cjfrv-qbFT0Gzh56mKFEHLgAFOuOg/s1884/Swiss%20wall%20painting%202.jpg" style="color: #1119cc; margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em; text-decoration-line: none;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1284" data-original-width="1884" height="272" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgW-0Rdfjwy00RasS74V-eBPhP57CQmTvWzql_1kvQkqgPH4I2JRQylN262BtkPrkbAX7rotvKybvp7OFr1nCiGhaYQMuFfOVsbKEpSJ9mxmwhdFtrwWDnUP33CnSTFpOKVJD5-Aw_cm9dnYkNlh2BN5-J3AnMBg9cjfrv-qbFT0Gzh56mKFEHLgAFOuOg/w400-h272/Swiss%20wall%20painting%202.jpg" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; border: 1px solid rgb(238, 238, 238); box-shadow: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.1) 1px 1px 5px; padding: 5px; position: relative;" width="400" /></span></a></div><span style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span><div class="separator" style="background-color: white; clear: both; color: #222222; text-align: center;"><a data-abc="true" href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhOSscIV4yAHKYf3FRGXywnB1LqKbBbL7IHb2witVvDgH7q28fGZ9OZ4yFQOV1oDahNmQYoDYXg5_civ7JIGUq2M4DVSmNBTSc4s71M9Bxn7KYvLLfZwvvlyR4Gmxj1iqp2HH09VrnsPdsJCY_k0sJ_Q9cx4FaeuKvywFROPgSRirWSy5j9fuISAwhAwCU/s1174/Swiss%20wall%20painting.jpg" style="color: #1119cc; margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em; text-decoration-line: none;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><img border="0" data-original-height="504" data-original-width="1174" height="171" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhOSscIV4yAHKYf3FRGXywnB1LqKbBbL7IHb2witVvDgH7q28fGZ9OZ4yFQOV1oDahNmQYoDYXg5_civ7JIGUq2M4DVSmNBTSc4s71M9Bxn7KYvLLfZwvvlyR4Gmxj1iqp2HH09VrnsPdsJCY_k0sJ_Q9cx4FaeuKvywFROPgSRirWSy5j9fuISAwhAwCU/w400-h171/Swiss%20wall%20painting.jpg" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; border: 1px solid rgb(238, 238, 238); box-shadow: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.1) 1px 1px 5px; padding: 5px; position: relative;" width="400" /></span></a></div><span style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span><div class="separator" style="background-color: white; clear: both; color: #222222; text-align: center;"><a data-abc="true" href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEi3rypmaEvsh23Fp5dQShLNl7kN1tUeWg4jXKG68z4EH5eWbtLhQsmdPc8WlIAcOYv-d8oJ2nDPlyTvwlyjsrA3agyB32CaVulSOEPAKa29TNzCze3ZEJAJVRbXIuEPDfORoDKhkYCSuCXAg3uzL3yVt9eHQ3hwcLjeQuoNqeiAmVCLnitA-vZJfrsmIzA/s1250/Zurich%20Capricorn%20painting.jpg" style="color: #1119cc; margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em; text-decoration-line: none;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1250" data-original-width="1126" height="400" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEi3rypmaEvsh23Fp5dQShLNl7kN1tUeWg4jXKG68z4EH5eWbtLhQsmdPc8WlIAcOYv-d8oJ2nDPlyTvwlyjsrA3agyB32CaVulSOEPAKa29TNzCze3ZEJAJVRbXIuEPDfORoDKhkYCSuCXAg3uzL3yVt9eHQ3hwcLjeQuoNqeiAmVCLnitA-vZJfrsmIzA/w360-h400/Zurich%20Capricorn%20painting.jpg" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; border: 1px solid rgb(238, 238, 238); box-shadow: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.1) 1px 1px 5px; padding: 5px; position: relative;" width="360" /></span></a></div><div><br /></div><span style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"></span></div><div><span style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span></div><div><span style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">But to me, these stand out and are interesting. Since I'm a curious fellow, I had to ask t</span></span><span style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: large;">he Swiss Mystery for this week... </span><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><b><span style="color: #990000;">1. Is there a name for this particularly Swiss kind of artwork-on-the-walls? Is there a particular name of the style in which most of them are drawn? </span></b> </span></p><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">How to start? </span></p><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">I know that paintings on walls are often called <i>frescos</i>, so: </span></p><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: arial; font-size: medium;"><b> [ Swiss frescos ] </b></span></p><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">actually didn't work all that well. I found a couple new ones, but the new paintings I found were mostly interior frescos (a la the <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sistine_Chapel_ceiling" target="_blank">Sistine Chapel in Rome</a>, probably the world's best known fresco). So it's pretty clear they're not called that. My next search: </span></p><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: arial; font-size: medium;"><b> [ Switzerland painting on exterior of buildings ] </b></span></p><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">worked a bit better. This led me to find that many people used the word "facade" with these paintings. My next query: </span></p><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: arial; font-size: medium;"><b> [ Switzerland facade painting ] </b></span></p><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">returned results that were pretty good. There were many more "Swiss exterior paintings" in the Images collection, but I still don't have a collective noun for these things. Besides, "facade" means "the principal front of a building, that faces on to a street or open space," which is nice, but it doesn't describe the paintings per se, but just where they're located. </span></p><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">On the other hand, this results page points to some great collections of these paintings. One of these links is to the wonderful paintings on buildings in <a href="https://schaffhausen.ch/" target="_blank">Schaffhausen</a>: </span></p><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: medium;"> https://www.swiss-spectator.ch/fassadenmalerei-in-schaffhausen/ </span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><span style="color: #222222;">I put the full text of the link there because I noticed something odd. See that term in the URL "</span><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="color: #222222;">fassadenmalerei"? I don't know it... could it be a clue? </span></span></span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">If you do a search on: </span></span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: arial; font-size: medium;"><b><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="color: #222222;"> [ </span></span><span style="color: #222222;">fassadenmalerei ] </span></b></span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">you'll find a lot of sponsored links--ads for companies that paint the facades of buildings. The German word "fassaden" means "facades" and "malerei" means "painter," specifically of decorative paintings. So this makes sense--of course there are companies that will paint your facades, usually in elaborate geometric color schemes.</span></span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">I looked at a few of their sites just to get a sense for the kind of work they do. Do any of them do paintings of the shown above? </span></span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><span style="color: #222222;">The fourth site I looked at does something they call "</span><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="color: #222222;"><a href="https://www.ag-bachmann.ch/dekorative-gestaltung/wand-und-fassadenmalerei">wand-und-fassadenmalerei.</a>" Since "wand" means "wall," maybe we're getting a little closer. Their demo images include some of the type we seek. </span></span></span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="color: #222222;">While reading a few of these sites, I found another word that seems on our trail: "</span></span><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="color: #222222;">Lüftlmalerei." A quick search for: </span></span></span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: arial; font-size: medium;"><b><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="color: #222222;"> [ </span></span><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="color: #222222;">Lüftlmalerei ] </span></span></b></span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="color: #222222;">takes us to the German Wikipedia entry, </span></span><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="color: #222222;"><a href="https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%BCftlmalerei" target="_blank">Lüftlmalerei</a>, which tells us that <br /></span></span></span></p></div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><div><p style="background-color: white; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: medium;"><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="color: #222222;">"... </span></span><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="color: #222222;">Lüftlmalerei (also spelled Lüftelmalerei ) refers to the art form of facade painting native to small towns and rural areas in southern Germany and Austria, especially in Upper Bavaria (Werdenfelser Land) and in Tyrol." </span></span></span></p></div></blockquote><div><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Well, <i>that's interesting</i>. </span></p><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">The region of Tyrol is in the far western part of Austria, bordering eastern Switzerland. Southern Germany is to the north and east of Switzerland, so it's definitely in the area. </span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Interestingly, when I asked my Swiss friends about this word, </span><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><span style="color: #222222;">Lüftlmalerei, they mostly said they understood it as "air painting," and that it sounded somewhat familiar, but they also all said "it sounds like an Austrian word." Apparently that second L, </span><b><span style="color: #222222;">lüft</span><span style="color: red;">l</span><span style="color: #222222;">malerei</span></b><span style="color: #222222;">, gives it a uniquely Austrian sound. (The L after the <b>lüft</b> is an Austrian/Southern German diminutive form. <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_diminutives_by_language#:~:text=the%20stressed%20vowel.-,Austro%2DBavarian,be%20M%C3%A4dl%2C%20Madl%20or%20M%C3%A4derl." target="_blank"> See this Wikipedia entry about forming diminutives in Austro-Bavarian German</a>.)</span></span></span></p><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Looking at <i>lüftlmalerei</i> images shows us that this seems like the right word: </span></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEi3Q89_UEfXyJPjwwel3Z3x_Tzwp0KNj2Oftal17Ngo6mbd6JmolkIhBnqrdQqdI4rS7ACkg8WfJUZBfKubGDK-WFOSj5-XlSumdhvKvIIcrza9eyy-JmE0mZMyKgjeCJHT5z7VE8qbTSZQuPaCphpsgXilzJnQetH5NdTnOg-36SWEH1vEjfWKdfr3Eco/s3292/lu%CC%88fltlmalerei.jpg" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1416" data-original-width="3292" height="276" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEi3Q89_UEfXyJPjwwel3Z3x_Tzwp0KNj2Oftal17Ngo6mbd6JmolkIhBnqrdQqdI4rS7ACkg8WfJUZBfKubGDK-WFOSj5-XlSumdhvKvIIcrza9eyy-JmE0mZMyKgjeCJHT5z7VE8qbTSZQuPaCphpsgXilzJnQetH5NdTnOg-36SWEH1vEjfWKdfr3Eco/w640-h276/lu%CC%88fltlmalerei.jpg" width="640" /></a></div><br /><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Some SRS Regular Readers wrote in (on one of our parallel syndications) about this Challenge. </span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Regular Reader Bill Janssen just knew that the word was probably “Wandmalerei." As we saw, that's certainly part of the answer. </span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><span style="color: #222222;">Franz Miltner (who works in </span><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="color: #222222;">Ingelheim am Rhen</span></span><span style="color: #222222;">) says “Not sure if there is a different term in Switzerland, but it's Lüftlmalerei in southern Germany and Austria." </span></span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Perhaps most notably, Regular Reader SpiritualLadder points out that: </span></p></div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><div><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia;">You might not like this, but I literally put in your exact question with the image into ChatGPT and this is what I got:</span></p></div></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><div><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Roboto Condensed;">(ChatGPT reply): "The artwork depicted in the image you've provided is reminiscent of a mural. In Switzerland, such murals are often associated with a long tradition of public art and can be reflective of various styles, from classical frescoes to more modern interpretations.</span></p></div></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><div><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;">Specifically, in Switzerland and parts of Germany, there is a tradition known as "Lüftlmalerei," a style of mural painting that is particularly found in the alpine regions. This style often features pastoral scenes, historical figures, and local legends, and is characterized by its use of vibrant colors and intricate details to create a sense of three-dimensional space on flat surfaces."</span></span></p></div></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><div><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia;">When you google Lüftlmalerei, you find that it is present in Germany and Austria, so it sounds like it might not be the right answer, but they do look similar to the ones you posted...so it feels right. (Maybe it has a different Swiss name.) If it *is* the right answer, that would explain why it's hard to find!</span></span></p></div><div><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia;">I felt like ChatGPT (with vision) *might* be able to handle this kind of task well since it might have been trained on images of this style. The first time I prompted it with a different wording it wasn't as helpful, but putting in your exact question got me this answer!</span></span></p></div></blockquote><div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">To SpiritualLadder's point, it doesn't bother me at all that ChatGPT was able to provide such a good answer--this is a real improvement! </span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">As I've noted before, the LLMs are still subject to hallucinations, so you still need to check everything. But if this accelerates the search process for some Challenges, I'm all for it. </span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><h3 style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">SearchResearch Lessons</span></h3><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">The traditional way I did it illustrated some insider techniques. </span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><b><i><span style="color: #990000;">1. Don't ignore the URLs. </span></i></b> They sometimes contain clues that will help you find the result you're looking for. </span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><b><i><span style="color: #990000;">2. Read related sites while looking for terms and concepts you don't know. </span></i></b> Reading related websites is how I learned about the idea of Lüftlmalerei, quickly doing a couple of searches to validate that this is, in fact, the correct term. </span></div><div><span style="color: #990000; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><i><b><br /></b></i></span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><i><b><span style="color: #990000;">3. Don't ignore the LLMs. </span></b></i>As SpiritualLadder points out, the LLMs can sometimes do a great job of pointing out things that you might not have considered. Be sure to validate the results they give you, but they're getting better every day. Consider checking AND confirming! </span></div><div><br /></div><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Keep searching! </span></p></div>Dan Russellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13603209997260423532noreply@blogger.com1tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4953008377950396317.post-6571489203396802822023-11-29T11:28:00.000-08:002023-11-29T11:28:52.056-08:00SearchResearch Challenge (11/29/23): What type of paintings are these? (Swiss Mystery #4) <p><span style="color: #990000; font-family: georgia; font-size: x-large;"><b><i> As I wander over hill and through dale, through alpine passes and mountain streams... </i></b></span></p><p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><img border="0" data-original-height="4032" data-original-width="3024" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEg-4IEVJOEwd90Ycvdxmq55sOOlPrXlTua93N_4-Fr2qPbAJu6gsXDLIGAaWvf1HKuBXEH4qIhPIo0tTkseqi8UMyiMcPVWBJZHmlk5Az3aU75X4y7cVjSYlY3MkDWrGG5Zwa5EWkFl-JOYaP94185zPTARGoPBrBIDxpXyiXmZnwZS88k7SB9P5ePqYKg/w480-h640/IMG_6643.HEIC" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;" width="480" /></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">A knight striding with flag, bear, and sword. (Bern, Switzerland)</td></tr></tbody></table></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEg-4IEVJOEwd90Ycvdxmq55sOOlPrXlTua93N_4-Fr2qPbAJu6gsXDLIGAaWvf1HKuBXEH4qIhPIo0tTkseqi8UMyiMcPVWBJZHmlk5Az3aU75X4y7cVjSYlY3MkDWrGG5Zwa5EWkFl-JOYaP94185zPTARGoPBrBIDxpXyiXmZnwZS88k7SB9P5ePqYKg/s4032/IMG_6643.HEIC" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"></span></a></div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br />... I'm seeing a kind of exterior artwork on the outside walls of many Swiss buildings. This is such a common thing that <i>surely</i> there must be a specific name for these kinds of paintings that appear on the buildings. Sometimes they're old, sometimes relatively new. Some fancy, but most are stylized in a way that I cannot describe easily--they're often noble, or heroic, frequently bucolic, sometimes civic in design, almost always in a kind of flattened, non-realistic rendering. </span><p></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">The Swiss Mystery for this week is this... </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><b><span style="color: #990000;">1. Is there a name for this particularly Swiss kind of artwork-on-the-walls? Is there a particular name of the style in which most of them are drawn? </span></b> </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">I admit that I do not know the answer yet, but I feel as though there MUST be a rather specific term for these images on the walls of greater Switzerland. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Here are a few examples: </span></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhREAteAPe92TWYEgtl4ljdiUvO7PbaZnMD2C6Dmh5PBpbAoM5kRIiw18bodhtrCDC1I6n6Y9dr8cGGptpOjBQkkb8Ak5p4R1oo0hCwlp_4BOZtP8nJ5kY_rjNfwQTY1rnBF73XfNe13XT38RRO9F78RtuU0rpQtJZ7bbStAE-mXoPn1Ba2AY6Cy5nZ7ss/s1402/Lucern%20knight.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1402" data-original-width="782" height="400" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhREAteAPe92TWYEgtl4ljdiUvO7PbaZnMD2C6Dmh5PBpbAoM5kRIiw18bodhtrCDC1I6n6Y9dr8cGGptpOjBQkkb8Ak5p4R1oo0hCwlp_4BOZtP8nJ5kY_rjNfwQTY1rnBF73XfNe13XT38RRO9F78RtuU0rpQtJZ7bbStAE-mXoPn1Ba2AY6Cy5nZ7ss/w223-h400/Lucern%20knight.jpg" width="223" /></span></a></div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiEjaQZH7h6fUW2R_18JJ4izv8xLhJoxt4VImxqLDRqbY3KugBQ8JVuN7bzacWJRTZH1Flp6hzeU28Y5JoEbSBMzSb3c7tbJTbMSKh6EUUbf7eIMytzBXP8ejnmY3o-MnMJVuNMhPU5GXXyRrfwKILnU9_XuXMqt4rJ_fRYOMICay35hJjVIojqxRRis_k/s1280/St%20Gallen%20bakery.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><img border="0" data-original-height="960" data-original-width="1280" height="300" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiEjaQZH7h6fUW2R_18JJ4izv8xLhJoxt4VImxqLDRqbY3KugBQ8JVuN7bzacWJRTZH1Flp6hzeU28Y5JoEbSBMzSb3c7tbJTbMSKh6EUUbf7eIMytzBXP8ejnmY3o-MnMJVuNMhPU5GXXyRrfwKILnU9_XuXMqt4rJ_fRYOMICay35hJjVIojqxRRis_k/w400-h300/St%20Gallen%20bakery.jpg" width="400" /></span></a></div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgW-0Rdfjwy00RasS74V-eBPhP57CQmTvWzql_1kvQkqgPH4I2JRQylN262BtkPrkbAX7rotvKybvp7OFr1nCiGhaYQMuFfOVsbKEpSJ9mxmwhdFtrwWDnUP33CnSTFpOKVJD5-Aw_cm9dnYkNlh2BN5-J3AnMBg9cjfrv-qbFT0Gzh56mKFEHLgAFOuOg/s1884/Swiss%20wall%20painting%202.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1284" data-original-width="1884" height="272" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgW-0Rdfjwy00RasS74V-eBPhP57CQmTvWzql_1kvQkqgPH4I2JRQylN262BtkPrkbAX7rotvKybvp7OFr1nCiGhaYQMuFfOVsbKEpSJ9mxmwhdFtrwWDnUP33CnSTFpOKVJD5-Aw_cm9dnYkNlh2BN5-J3AnMBg9cjfrv-qbFT0Gzh56mKFEHLgAFOuOg/w400-h272/Swiss%20wall%20painting%202.jpg" width="400" /></span></a></div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhOSscIV4yAHKYf3FRGXywnB1LqKbBbL7IHb2witVvDgH7q28fGZ9OZ4yFQOV1oDahNmQYoDYXg5_civ7JIGUq2M4DVSmNBTSc4s71M9Bxn7KYvLLfZwvvlyR4Gmxj1iqp2HH09VrnsPdsJCY_k0sJ_Q9cx4FaeuKvywFROPgSRirWSy5j9fuISAwhAwCU/s1174/Swiss%20wall%20painting.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><img border="0" data-original-height="504" data-original-width="1174" height="171" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhOSscIV4yAHKYf3FRGXywnB1LqKbBbL7IHb2witVvDgH7q28fGZ9OZ4yFQOV1oDahNmQYoDYXg5_civ7JIGUq2M4DVSmNBTSc4s71M9Bxn7KYvLLfZwvvlyR4Gmxj1iqp2HH09VrnsPdsJCY_k0sJ_Q9cx4FaeuKvywFROPgSRirWSy5j9fuISAwhAwCU/w400-h171/Swiss%20wall%20painting.jpg" width="400" /></span></a></div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEi3rypmaEvsh23Fp5dQShLNl7kN1tUeWg4jXKG68z4EH5eWbtLhQsmdPc8WlIAcOYv-d8oJ2nDPlyTvwlyjsrA3agyB32CaVulSOEPAKa29TNzCze3ZEJAJVRbXIuEPDfORoDKhkYCSuCXAg3uzL3yVt9eHQ3hwcLjeQuoNqeiAmVCLnitA-vZJfrsmIzA/s1250/Zurich%20Capricorn%20painting.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1250" data-original-width="1126" height="400" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEi3rypmaEvsh23Fp5dQShLNl7kN1tUeWg4jXKG68z4EH5eWbtLhQsmdPc8WlIAcOYv-d8oJ2nDPlyTvwlyjsrA3agyB32CaVulSOEPAKa29TNzCze3ZEJAJVRbXIuEPDfORoDKhkYCSuCXAg3uzL3yVt9eHQ3hwcLjeQuoNqeiAmVCLnitA-vZJfrsmIzA/w360-h400/Zurich%20Capricorn%20painting.jpg" width="360" /></span></a></div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">What do you call these? More importantly, what do the LOCALS call this kind of artwork? </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">I'd like to learn more about this artistic tradition, but don't know quite where to start. Any ideas from the SearchResearch crowd? </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">When you find the answer(s), let us all know HOW you found them! Let notes in the comments field. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Keep searching! </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></p><p><br /></p>Dan Russellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13603209997260423532noreply@blogger.com14tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4953008377950396317.post-4058267954303635592023-11-21T21:55:00.000-08:002023-11-21T21:55:55.782-08:00Answer: How does it work? Checking your assumptions? <p><b style="font-family: georgia;"><i><span style="font-size: x-large;">We all make assumptions... </span></i></b></p><div class="post-body entry-content" id="post-body-533429483195522200" itemprop="description articleBody" style="line-height: 1.4; position: relative; width: 520px;"><p style="font-size: 13.2px;"></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; font-size: 13.2px; text-align: center;"><a data-abc="true" href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEj58VunNjs6PJ2YeMJqrENz3_msJwB8mq53hxI8EqSL7V3CCv8qw1qV3HlqPN2gKEfNEBTqk3z3mTH7IiCSB5kUnysO3aTsUVDwX1YsAN4a2WlWVZehXvF2zQ9t-OrfMyaTdr68M6fY6czSxqZujL2k_cHZG5iWzCTwL16WEZq7xcN78z-vQOgxNVNwBy0/s2213/appliances.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="color: #1119cc; margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em; text-decoration-line: none;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><img border="0" data-original-height="822" data-original-width="2213" height="238" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEj58VunNjs6PJ2YeMJqrENz3_msJwB8mq53hxI8EqSL7V3CCv8qw1qV3HlqPN2gKEfNEBTqk3z3mTH7IiCSB5kUnysO3aTsUVDwX1YsAN4a2WlWVZehXvF2zQ9t-OrfMyaTdr68M6fY6czSxqZujL2k_cHZG5iWzCTwL16WEZq7xcN78z-vQOgxNVNwBy0/w640-h238/appliances.jpg" style="background: rgb(255, 255, 255); border: 1px solid rgb(238, 238, 238); box-shadow: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.1) 1px 1px 5px; padding: 5px; position: relative;" width="640" /></span></a></div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br />.</span><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;">.. it's a normal thing to do. But when we're doing online research, it's good to check yourself. This week's Challenge is a little story about why... </span></span><div><p><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;">My <b>assumption</b> was that these common kitchen appliances had the same mechanism for knowing when the toast / water / rice is at the right temperature or level of doneness. </span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;">Then I checked--and had a big surprise. Really? </span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;">Today's SearchResearch Challenge is simple: </span></span></p><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><p><span style="color: #990000; font-family: georgia;"><b><span style="font-size: medium;">1. So... how DO each of these devices know when the toast / water / rice is ready? </span></b></span></p><p><span style="color: #990000; font-family: georgia;"><b><span style="font-size: medium;">2. (extra credit) What other devices do you believe you understand, but when you checked, you learned that you actually didn't understand? Does anything spring to mind? Any surprises? </span></b></span></p></blockquote><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Searching for the answer isn't hard: </span></p><p><span style="font-size: medium;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"> </span><b><span style="font-family: arial;"> [ how does an electric tea kettle know when<br /> the water is boiling ] </span></b></span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial; font-size: medium;"><b> [ how does a rice cooker know when <br /> the rice is done ] </b></span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial; font-size: medium;"><b> [ how does a toaster know when <br /> the toast is done ] </b></span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Let's talk about these one-by-one. </span></p><p><span style="font-size: medium;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><i><b>Electric tea kettle:</b> </i>Do this query and you'll find a lot of explanatory text telling you that a ring-shaped bimetallic strip changes shape as it warms up, and since it's slightly buckled, when it deforms just enough, it snaps into a different shape, mechanically flipping the heater switch to off </span><span style="font-family: georgia;">when the water hits the boiling point of 100C (212F). Very simple, <i>very clever. </i>But how does it know?</span></span></p><p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiWnz9wD_1eiMyXGaFrnxm39RuVQUmNlY7Rv6s-IDMpU9VwLuR06GCMA2dQdf5qGhI5_Dj7TUGBeJBQXAxgV77X8RUfG0hEOownBw04-5igW5lN_TwIvlO-I64GDJn63NTLdpbjs9DfUnTFnlx82NxJA0UtsVYBWuYlvIVBoy_JBK_Dmh95onnlq4XdD9s/s972/tea%20kettle%20thermostat.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><img border="0" data-original-height="972" data-original-width="910" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiWnz9wD_1eiMyXGaFrnxm39RuVQUmNlY7Rv6s-IDMpU9VwLuR06GCMA2dQdf5qGhI5_Dj7TUGBeJBQXAxgV77X8RUfG0hEOownBw04-5igW5lN_TwIvlO-I64GDJn63NTLdpbjs9DfUnTFnlx82NxJA0UtsVYBWuYlvIVBoy_JBK_Dmh95onnlq4XdD9s/w600-h640/tea%20kettle%20thermostat.jpg" width="600" /></span></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><span style="font-size: medium;">The underside of a tea kettle with the bimetallic ring outlined with a red dashed line. </span></td></tr></tbody></table><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;">That bimetallic ring is actually a fairly smart little invention--the tang coming out of the ring lies in the plane of the ring at room temperature, but as the ring starts to bend under the heating of the kettle, it suddenly snaps to a different shape with the tang pointing up. This is called a <i>bistable device</i>, a gizmo that can be in one of two different physical configurations. Of course, the bimetallic strip's clever trick is that it will flip into the "hot" state when the temperature gets high enough, then flip back to the cool state after the heat is off. That rapid flip to the other bistable position is what mechanically flips the power switch back off. </span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;">The best example of this I could find is this YouTube short showing a tea kettle thermostat that flips back and forth rapidly when warmed up. (<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_xx-GHqdbA" target="_blank">Video link</a>.) </span></span></p><p></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><iframe allowfullscreen="" class="BLOG_video_class" height="330" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/h_xx-GHqdbA" width="397" youtube-src-id="h_xx-GHqdbA"></iframe></span></div><p></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;">And... I thought that was that. </span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;">But as I was writing this up, I ran across a video about electric tea kettles on Steve Mould's YouTube channel that showed me something I'd <i><span style="color: #990000;">completely missed</span>:</i> the steam tube! </span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">(<a href="https://www.youtube.com/shorts/1mJYli-aNrI " target="_blank">Steve Mould video short on steam tubes in tea kettles</a>.) </span></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><iframe allowfullscreen="" class="BLOG_video_class" height="318" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/1mJYli-aNrI" width="383" youtube-src-id="1mJYli-aNrI"></iframe></span></div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">It turns out (as Steve Mould points out), that the thermostat is actually at the bottom of the tube that is open to the top of the vessel. As the kettle heats up, eventually the steam in the kettle is forced down the tube where it directly heats up the thermostat, which flips at around 95 C (203 F). </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Why is this important? Because water boils at different temperatures at different altitudes, so a thermostat that is preset to 100C won't switch off at high altitudes. In Denver, which is at 1609 meters (5280 feet), water boils at 95°C, or 203°F. So if the thermostat only tripped at 100°C, it wouldn't work! </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">At this point I got really curious about this somewhat sophisticated design, so I looked up a few electric tea kettle patents, where I learned that this is well-known by tea kettle designers. To quote one such patent (<a href="https://patents.google.com/patent/US4357520" target="_blank">US4357520</a>, from 1979): <br /><i><br />"Alternatively a steam tube or passage, which communicates with a steam or vapour aperture in the upper wall of the container, may be run down the outside of the container. Such a tube or passage may be concealed within or behind a handle structure of the container..."</i> </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">I thought that was it. NOW I understood how they worked. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">But as I was writing this up, on a lark, I searched for: </span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial; font-size: medium;"><b> [ electric tea kettle diagram ] </b></span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">hoping to find a cross-section of a kettle showing the steam tube. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><b><span style="color: #990000;">But NO! </span></b>I was again surprised to learn that there is a second thermostat, a "boil dry" thermostat that kicks in if/when the first thermostat fails to detect any steam. This would happen if the kettle was switched on without any water. No water, no steam, no steam pressure, no thermostat clicking off. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">I found this because I saw this diagram in the search results: </span></p><p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhCQ36SXma0W154WxPbJzqwkjvBAHQPNxefeOpkdvHMTmR5kmGbIJ1qM1JE8dDLq8zqHD-AQ4W6DHfv_Conn4t7snCbZHmR8-RxMsoeKZkHypDdlN5MD4MNhiufqF7VFbDU2wxf1VEsvn8l4jJ4fJ5FEL2e3vjYJ_ZAJs8HTzDA_O_hs9gzeL03xaY5vN4/s800/kettle%20circuit.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><img border="0" data-original-height="690" data-original-width="800" height="276" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhCQ36SXma0W154WxPbJzqwkjvBAHQPNxefeOpkdvHMTmR5kmGbIJ1qM1JE8dDLq8zqHD-AQ4W6DHfv_Conn4t7snCbZHmR8-RxMsoeKZkHypDdlN5MD4MNhiufqF7VFbDU2wxf1VEsvn8l4jJ4fJ5FEL2e3vjYJ_ZAJs8HTzDA_O_hs9gzeL03xaY5vN4/s320/kettle%20circuit.jpg" width="320" /></span></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><span style="font-size: medium;">Electric tea kettle circuit diagram. (P/C from <a href="https://karisimby.wordpress.com/2009/08/10/standard-kettle-circuit-diagram/" target="_blank">Karisimby's blog</a>)</span></td></tr></tbody></table><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /><span style="font-family: georgia;">I know enough about electronics to realize that this was NOT what I had in my head. The "steam thermostat" was what I expected. What I did not expect was a second "Boil dry" thermostat. </span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">A bit more searching revealed that such a second thermostat is set at a much higher temperature and is attached directly to the kettle wall. So if the kettle is dry and heating up, the steam thermostat won't kick in, but the boil dry thermostat will open the circuit and stop the heating from running away (and possibly causing a meltdown). </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Amazing what you'll learn if you keep poking. (If you want to learn more, <a href="https://www.explainthatstuff.com/how-electric-kettles-work.html" target="_blank">I recommend this wonderful explanation of tea kettles</a>.) </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></p><p><span style="font-size: medium;"><i style="font-family: georgia;"><b>Rice cooker:</b> </i><span style="font-family: georgia;">Again, not a difficult query, but the answer surprised me! I'd assumed that there was a simple bimetallic thermostat in the rice cooker as well--in fact, I'd assumed that it worked in much the same way, probably with an identical part inside. </span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: medium;"><span style="font-family: georgia;">But I quickly learned that most rice cookers (especially older ones) use a very clever magnet that turns off the heating element when the temperature goes above 100</span><span style="font-family: georgia;">°C, or 223°F. </span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;">Basically, there are two heaters in a rice cooker--one that keeps the rice warm and a second heater that boils the water, much like the tea kettle. </span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: medium;"><span style="font-family: georgia;">However, I learned that rice cookers have a little magnet that holds the switch closed to close the main circuit to the heating element. That circuit heats up the water until it boils, after it boils, the temperature of the magnent will start to rise beyond </span><span style="font-family: georgia;">100</span><span style="font-family: georgia;">°C, or 223°F. When that happens, the magnet loses it's magnetism, allowing the circuit breaker to pop open, stopping the heating. </span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: medium;"><span style="font-family: georgia;">The amazing trick here is that the magnet is designed so that it's </span><b style="font-family: georgia;"><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curie_temperature" target="_blank">Curie point</a></b><span style="font-family: georgia;"> (that is, the temperature at which it loses its magnetism) is at 100°C!</span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">This is simpler to watch a video than to explain in text. So I recommend this video: <a href="https://youtu.be/RSTNhvDGbYI?si=nBp35feAwQ4s6c_U&t=284" target="_blank">Nice explanation of how the magnetic cutoff switch works on a rice cooker</a>. </span></p><p></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><iframe allowfullscreen="" class="BLOG_video_class" height="266" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/RSTNhvDGbYI" width="320" youtube-src-id="RSTNhvDGbYI"></iframe></span></div><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /></span><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">The bimetallic strip thermostat works because different metals expand at different rates, causing it to change shape. </span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">I didn't dream that using a magnet's <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curie_temperature" target="_blank">Curie temperature</a> would be used in the simplest of all rice cookers. It's really not obvious that this is would be used to turn off the heat. Incredibly smart use of some sophisticated physics. </span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-size: medium;"><span style="font-family: georgia;">Oddly, I can't find any evidence that a rice cooker has a boil dry mechanism! (I assume they do. If you find out, let me know in the comments below.) </span><span style="font-family: georgia;"><br /></span></span><p></p></div><div><span style="font-size: medium;"><span style="font-family: georgia;">To be sure, there are other mechanisms out there for telling when the rice is done--neural fuzzy logic rice cookers with complicated sensing systems. But I love this elegant application of magnets! </span></span></div><div><span style="font-size: medium;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><br /></span></span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span></div><div><span style="font-size: medium;"><i style="font-family: georgia;"><b>Toaster:</b> </i><span style="font-family: georgia;">The big problem with toasters is that there are so many of them. But for the most part, simple toasters are just timing mechanisms... turn the dial, get the level of brown you'd like. It's really up to you learn which dial setting corresponds to the level of toasted that you like. </span></span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;">But there are a LOT of different toasters out there--some with fancy thermocouples to determine temperature, some with just plain old spring-loaded timers that count down the seconds, and some with complex electromagnets to hold down the <i>carriage</i> (that carries the bread/toast on its journey). </span></span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;">The old-fashioned toaster, though, is just a timer... nothing more than that. </span></span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><b>Other devices I don't understand?</b> </span></span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span></div><div><b style="color: #990000; font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;">2. (extra credit) What other devices do you believe you understand, but when you checked, you learned that you actually didn't understand? Does anything spring to mind? Any surprises? </span></b></div><div><b style="color: #990000; font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /></span></b></div><div><b style="color: #990000; font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /></span></b></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">There are LOTS of things I don't understand, but will look into once I get the chance. I want to learn how the magic happens. Among them, </span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">1. iPhone--how it knows how far I've walked or run. I know it counts steps, and I know it has a GPS system in it, so I <i>assume</i> it uses the GPS for distance traveled and counts steps via the on-board accelerometers, but does it combine those information streams in some way? Don't know. </span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">2. Refrigerators--I don't understand the physics of them in detail, but I do know that they have a single cooling unit which then cools the frozen foods at one temperature, but the cool part of the fridge is handled in a different way. Again, how does it know? </span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">3. S</span><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: large;">auté </span><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"> release--Sometimes when I cook (say) a piece of meat, it will come out of the pan easily--it "releases" with ease. But sometimes, it sticks and makes a mess. Is it purely a function of temperature, the amount of oil, or the material in use? I need to understand this! </span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">The bigger point here is that all of these phenomena are understandable with a little observation and a dash of SRS. </span></div><h3 style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></h3><h3 style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">SearchResearch Lessons</span></h3><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><b><i><span style="color: #990000;">1. Expect surprises and be ready for them. </span></i></b> Initially I thought that the rice cooker story was going to be straightforward. So it was a surprise when the story got more complicated. I discovered that when I noticed that something I read from the SERP didn't fit in with what I already knew. (And this happened to me twice!) </span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><span style="color: #990000;"><i style="font-weight: bold;">2. Use multiple document types to get a full perspective</i>. </span> Sometimes a regular web search works just fine, but for complicated searches like the rice cooker, I used Image search, YouTube searches, and even Patent searches to get multiple perspectives. I ALSO looked at multiple sources for each device, partly because some of the documents are simplified versions. (For instance, not all rice cooker stories mention either the steam tube OR the dry boil cutoff thermostat.) </span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><b><span style="color: #990000;"><i>3. Be aware when what you read doesn't match what you think you know</i>. </span> </b>Again, this happens multiple times for every SRS session--I learn things, and then learn something different. When what you read doesn't line up with what you've already read, take that as a signal that there's more to learn! </span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">And keep searching! </span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div></div>Dan Russellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13603209997260423532noreply@blogger.com8tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4953008377950396317.post-5334294831955222002023-11-08T11:40:00.002-08:002023-11-08T11:40:51.784-08:00SearchResearch Challenge (11/8/23): How does it work? Checking your assumptions.<p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: x-large;"><b><i>The most common error... </i></b></span></p><p></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEj58VunNjs6PJ2YeMJqrENz3_msJwB8mq53hxI8EqSL7V3CCv8qw1qV3HlqPN2gKEfNEBTqk3z3mTH7IiCSB5kUnysO3aTsUVDwX1YsAN4a2WlWVZehXvF2zQ9t-OrfMyaTdr68M6fY6czSxqZujL2k_cHZG5iWzCTwL16WEZq7xcN78z-vQOgxNVNwBy0/s2213/appliances.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><img border="0" data-original-height="822" data-original-width="2213" height="238" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEj58VunNjs6PJ2YeMJqrENz3_msJwB8mq53hxI8EqSL7V3CCv8qw1qV3HlqPN2gKEfNEBTqk3z3mTH7IiCSB5kUnysO3aTsUVDwX1YsAN4a2WlWVZehXvF2zQ9t-OrfMyaTdr68M6fY6czSxqZujL2k_cHZG5iWzCTwL16WEZq7xcN78z-vQOgxNVNwBy0/w640-h238/appliances.jpg" width="640" /></span></a></div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br />... in online research is probably that of not checking your assumptions. We tend to see the world without questioning, and we often bake those assumptions into our research behaviors. </span><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"> </span><p></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Here we see three common, everyday appliances: an electric tea kettle, an ordinary rice cooker, and a plain old toaster.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">I've seen these for years--there's nothing especially strange or exotic about them. You've probably used them all as well.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">As I was waiting for my toast to turn to a satisfactory shade of brown, I was looking at it standing next to my electric tea kettle, not far from my rice cooker and thinking about how they each <i>know</i> that the toast / water / rice is ready. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">My <b>assumption</b> was that they all had the same mechanism for knowing when the toast / water / rice is at the right temperature or level of doneness. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">So I was really surprised when I checked my assumption, and found that I was utterly wrong. The only device that I got right was the toaster--I knew that one--the other two surprised me. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Today's SearchResearch Challenge is simple: </span></p><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><p><span style="color: #990000; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><b>1. So... how DO each of these devices know when the toast / water / rice is ready? </b></span></p><p><span style="color: #990000; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><b>2. (extra credit) What other devices do you believe you understand, but when you checked, you learned that you actually didn't understand? Does anything spring to mind? Any surprises? </b></span></p></blockquote><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">This SRS Challenge isn't that hard, but it brings up a fairly deep point about when to question our assumptions... and HOW to realize that your assumptions might be wrong. Any ideas? </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Share your thoughts in the comments. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Keep searching! </span></p><p><br /></p></div>Dan Russellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13603209997260423532noreply@blogger.com22tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4953008377950396317.post-6720790428171491572023-10-31T23:58:00.000-07:002023-10-31T23:58:12.539-07:00Answer: Three little Swiss mysteries?<p><span style="font-size: x-large;"> <b style="background-color: white; color: #2b00fe; font-family: georgia;"><i>Living anywhere new inevitably leads to discoveries and recognition that the world is larger and more interesting than you might have thought, </i></b></span></p><div class="separator" style="background-color: white; clear: both; color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; text-align: center;"><a data-abc="true" href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEh4TK69AKIxoN7UkGYrb5Fy6VXKW2Fz6GepR94xN_rIHS_s2pcDkq0atE0pFFBJ1M_aaOQnjwfa__rzL7m5dif-G6DvMqC_OKh-DOWTU4Z4dCSgn-LOhuIg4pG6V_jSoXHGCuk4OBtK7urFGVsTCNsmgNzVpSPxOuXer0OuG6YRJIN1Q5Jjz1MUQcixeVw/s1956/Zurich%20by%20night.jpg" style="color: #1119cc; margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em; text-decoration-line: none;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1288" data-original-width="1956" height="422" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEh4TK69AKIxoN7UkGYrb5Fy6VXKW2Fz6GepR94xN_rIHS_s2pcDkq0atE0pFFBJ1M_aaOQnjwfa__rzL7m5dif-G6DvMqC_OKh-DOWTU4Z4dCSgn-LOhuIg4pG6V_jSoXHGCuk4OBtK7urFGVsTCNsmgNzVpSPxOuXer0OuG6YRJIN1Q5Jjz1MUQcixeVw/w640-h422/Zurich%20by%20night.jpg" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; border: 1px solid rgb(238, 238, 238); box-shadow: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.1) 1px 1px 5px; padding: 5px; position: relative;" width="640" /></span></span></a></div><span style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">As mentioned, I'm here in Switzerland for four months. Even though I've been here before many times, the extended time period of living in one distinctly different place is proving to be eye-opening. </span></p><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">But as a person who's relatively new to life in Zürich, I've found a few things that are charming and puzzling at the same time. Can you help me figure out what's going on in each of these cases? </span></p><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="color: #990000;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><b>1. Why are these eggs colored orange/yellow? </b>I bought them in the local grocery store where they were sitting out on the shelf, unrefrigerated. The label on the container says <i>Schweizer Eier</i> (Swiss eggs). I've seen many different colored eggs from friends who have chickens (blue, green, brown, some with spots), still, this is extraordinary color.<b> But what's the story here? What kind of chicken would produce these eggs? </b></span></span></p><div class="separator" style="background-color: white; clear: both; color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; text-align: center;"><a data-abc="true" href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEg-hfOZ07TJW5JydDvQlSTvuaGfptiTMpv3I4oSYVZDH976TChYiN6lL-BByK6e4lxyjxGxFKmZb6ynerk8l2HLMc_b4RCNHAp0_48YnzIkH4L3fDM6MR93gVMcVMxJ9j6NMvDZD-P70y2meqtV56hN4uksWtJOyDwTJbf79D0LEpW_bir7lJ2BDlQQlwU/s1858/eggs.jpg" style="color: #1119cc; margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em; text-decoration-line: none;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1286" data-original-width="1858" height="442" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEg-hfOZ07TJW5JydDvQlSTvuaGfptiTMpv3I4oSYVZDH976TChYiN6lL-BByK6e4lxyjxGxFKmZb6ynerk8l2HLMc_b4RCNHAp0_48YnzIkH4L3fDM6MR93gVMcVMxJ9j6NMvDZD-P70y2meqtV56hN4uksWtJOyDwTJbf79D0LEpW_bir7lJ2BDlQQlwU/w640-h442/eggs.jpg" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; border: 1px solid rgb(238, 238, 238); box-shadow: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.1) 1px 1px 5px; padding: 5px; position: relative;" width="640" /></span></span></a></div><span style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><div style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: georgia;"><br /></span></div><span style="font-family: georgia;">I was thinking that these eggs were <i>naturally </i>this color. After all, eggs DO come in a bunch of different colors! I knew that, in the US at least, chicken eggs can show up in a variety of shades:</span><br /><span style="font-family: georgia;"> </span></span></span><div><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjkoE4aIwxeilvNYLChYRXshXCKb6MasGwXGTlRw4Mx6aVr6GQGGW46JFJ7JfPwMDsGX8G4dmTe7HXCGZfiFTggc7XmapGtfRp9xawCx2YVKpiD2QS5BTjUFya_WzDb2wMCCGExwMxWRipgXDUrjNwDddQU0Hnh3KlIbFcsWz4_4ZNivmjtPnDCYTg6Z1k/s1751/chicken%20eggs%20Farmers-gov.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1252" data-original-width="1751" height="458" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjkoE4aIwxeilvNYLChYRXshXCKb6MasGwXGTlRw4Mx6aVr6GQGGW46JFJ7JfPwMDsGX8G4dmTe7HXCGZfiFTggc7XmapGtfRp9xawCx2YVKpiD2QS5BTjUFya_WzDb2wMCCGExwMxWRipgXDUrjNwDddQU0Hnh3KlIbFcsWz4_4ZNivmjtPnDCYTg6Z1k/w640-h458/chicken%20eggs%20Farmers-gov.jpg" width="640" /></span></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><span style="font-size: medium;">Photo by Justin Pius, <a href="https://www.farmers.gov/blog/fridays-on-farm-creating-happy-homestead-in-kentucky" target="_blank">NRCS</a></span></td></tr></tbody></table><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /><span style="font-family: georgia;">So I was prepared to think that maybe Swiss chickens are simply more colorful! </span></span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">I spent a lot of time searching for colored eggs, learning that I needed to include <i>chicken</i> in my searches, as there are a wild number of different kinds of eggs from a zillion kinds of birds, some of which are extraordinary. (<a href="https://www.snexplores.org/article/why-are-bird-eggs-cold-climates-darker-colored" target="_blank">See the Science News article about different egg colors.</a>) </span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">I also have to admit to spending at least 30 minutes poking around looking at many pages, and NOT finding anything. Oh, I found a lot, but the colored eggs made at Easter, or the tendency to have naturally dyed eggs were all over the results. Here's a sample of what I was seeing: </span></div><div><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgYBmoAl93QljAPqCYUu_hUzXJG_ySSGZcIVeqApyuyhpedowOSrgnL-tRgm_riJYZ6sSCVmiFxeLmm0aN8zFPMJQ646bktbIBpXDpltQGlnJIdtZ_WYRYfFjXhH4s4pxtJQjutFKsIceqfeDn7mG6xw1VTdYhWRIG4rHo5-b1SFGs6Alf5VQe9KhTFy6Y/s2504/Swiss%20chicken%20eggs.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1382" data-original-width="2504" height="354" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgYBmoAl93QljAPqCYUu_hUzXJG_ySSGZcIVeqApyuyhpedowOSrgnL-tRgm_riJYZ6sSCVmiFxeLmm0aN8zFPMJQ646bktbIBpXDpltQGlnJIdtZ_WYRYfFjXhH4s4pxtJQjutFKsIceqfeDn7mG6xw1VTdYhWRIG4rHo5-b1SFGs6Alf5VQe9KhTFy6Y/w640-h354/Swiss%20chicken%20eggs.jpg" width="640" /></span></a></div><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /></span><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">I was just scrolling around, trying to figure out what to do when I noticed one article about <a href="https://www.thekitchn.com/look-colored-eggs-in-swiss-sup-129713" target="_blank">Look! Colored Eggs in Swiss Supermarket</a>. That's what I was looking for! But in the article, it mentioned that "colored eggs... are so nice for picnics." Huh? You wouldn't take raw eggs on a picnic, right? </span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">So I changed my query to a question using that as inspiration: </span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"> </span></div><div><span style="font-size: medium;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"> </span><b><span style="font-family: arial;"> [ Why are there colored eggs in Swiss supermarkets? ] </span></b></span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">And very quickly learned from a <a href="https://www.reddit.com/r/mildlyinteresting/comments/6z2w32/in_switzerland_grocery_stores_sell_painted/" target="_blank">Reddit post</a> that "In Switzerland, grocery stores sell painted hard-boiled eggs in order to differentiate between the fresh and hard-boiled ones." (SRS tip: Google is much, much better at answering free-form questions, independent of the LLM work.) </span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Now Reddit is fun, but a bit untrustworthy. However, when I double-checked, I found multiple sources telling me this. Grocery stores in Switzerland DO sell hard-boiled eggs in a variety of colors (these red/gold eggs are from one particular store--different store will have different colors)! </span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">I checked on the package that held the eggs and found (in fairly small font!) that they are "<i>Aus Freilandhaltung * gekocht * gefärbt</i>." I should have looked more carefully. Google Translate tells me that this means "<i>Free range * cooked * <b><span style="color: #660000;">colored</span></b></i>." </span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Ah. Got it.</span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><b>Lesson learned:</b> Read the package (even the small print) first. Also learned that sometimes you'll learn the crucial tip by just scanning the results! <br /></span><span style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="color: #990000;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><b>2. </b>While on a hike in the Alps (near Rigi Scheidegg, if that helps), I came across this flag--and I have no idea what kind of a flag this is. What does it represent? (It might help to know that the Swiss are a little flag-crazy. There is traditional Swiss flag-tossing (a kind of bucolic, even serene sport... <a data-abc="true" href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhrrU_U9agU" style="color: #1119cc; text-decoration-line: none;" target="_blank">watch the video</a>), and flags seem to abound. <b>Given the level of </b><a data-abc="true" href="https://www.nava.org/" style="color: #1119cc; font-weight: bold; text-decoration-line: none;" target="_blank">vexillological</a><b> interest here, it must signify something, but what? </b></span></span></p><div class="separator" style="background-color: white; clear: both; color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; text-align: center;"><a data-abc="true" href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjHIaNpcoAd76lO0aU9M1Jwk8WQL-5S3guSbSjqpC_GwLQlU-3UB3RsQXFZqKqnt8H02yUpO5hzv0fJhTKXnoXYrB7iOeSWo6V0NidhlS297ROEKOav9sHUyGJwH_Rnt_5bNWi3zLugchKecSbL2cVSMUqOA4_vI30MLiY4_4A9DJ6i1it9CK9wMbwODHI/s1384/flag.jpg" style="color: #1119cc; margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em; text-decoration-line: none;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1382" data-original-width="1384" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjHIaNpcoAd76lO0aU9M1Jwk8WQL-5S3guSbSjqpC_GwLQlU-3UB3RsQXFZqKqnt8H02yUpO5hzv0fJhTKXnoXYrB7iOeSWo6V0NidhlS297ROEKOav9sHUyGJwH_Rnt_5bNWi3zLugchKecSbL2cVSMUqOA4_vI30MLiY4_4A9DJ6i1it9CK9wMbwODHI/w640-h640/flag.jpg" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; border: 1px solid rgb(238, 238, 238); box-shadow: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.1) 1px 1px 5px; padding: 5px; position: relative;" width="640" /></span></span></a></div><span style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><div style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: georgia;"><br /></span></div><span style="font-family: georgia;">This has turned out to be very hard--I'm not sure I have the right answer. I tried all of the obvious image search tools (Google Image Search / Lens; Tineye; Bing Image Search; Yandex Image Search), but none of them gave me anything good. </span></span></span></div><div><span style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span></div><div><span style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">I tried various descriptions of the flag (four white hearts, four-leaf clover on a red background, etc etc.), but nothing really worked. I searched for versions of these terms with words like "logo" or "flag" or "emblem" or "sigil" or "device"... but I didn't get very fair. SRS Reader Paul L tried the specific flag search engine <a href="http://FlagID.org">FlagID.org</a> (that's a new one to me.. nice find Paul), but to no avail. </span></span></div><div><span style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span></div><div><span style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">I figured it was a <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_and_arms_of_cantons_of_Switzerland" target="_blank">cantonal flag or arms</a>--but I checked those as well--no dice. </span></span></div><div><span style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span></div><div><span style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Paul also "... finally loosened the search to only include red flag with white and scanned to see the much sharper edges of the Maltese cross on the <a href="https://www.bardonnex.ch/" target="_blank">Bardonnex Commune</a> (Switzerland) flag." While that's really close, it's not quite the same thing. </span></span></div><div><span style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span></div><div><span style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgAgGb4zzXAwDFW40nVM9mQ9XEV2Mq8OESbUhWpKl4rrQWVjJLpeGyVdv4lu9YakCsdIgSylxiFzLsEIkZ7BrhHKA_PPvIcJRSeaEwE_0qqRPFhc3rAuKP41uifHeijv_aPkjPKq44qR3VvjhNHQtJpld2gT2Mo6-65KhPe40mUFZdz93d0uDyaUCm1R0Y/s216/Bardonnex%20flag.png" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="216" data-original-width="216" height="216" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgAgGb4zzXAwDFW40nVM9mQ9XEV2Mq8OESbUhWpKl4rrQWVjJLpeGyVdv4lu9YakCsdIgSylxiFzLsEIkZ7BrhHKA_PPvIcJRSeaEwE_0qqRPFhc3rAuKP41uifHeijv_aPkjPKq44qR3VvjhNHQtJpld2gT2Mo6-65KhPe40mUFZdz93d0uDyaUCm1R0Y/s1600/Bardonnex%20flag.png" width="216" /></a></div><br /><span style="color: #222222;">I even made a fairly high-resolution image of the flag and tried to Google Lens (and Bing, and Tineye) this: </span></span></span></div><div><span style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span></div><div><span style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjrpIV5KB44568gxuTWJ0j-KZ8Q-BTXGZ4rBMz4qd0dbgAkS_wqq9Qj_6ucd-M_JG4wsScteTIo2isoWKqdVvniG-MbPBv_6teFTurP5tY5wIPREgYrtedTaXn2MCt83m-zoq6NjxSKjFOklf7iZY6QUGOh84cY8UvHTw2zSCeJ0AdsJAuVxIyo0r_OLTA/s2344/New%20clover%20flag.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="2204" data-original-width="2344" height="301" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjrpIV5KB44568gxuTWJ0j-KZ8Q-BTXGZ4rBMz4qd0dbgAkS_wqq9Qj_6ucd-M_JG4wsScteTIo2isoWKqdVvniG-MbPBv_6teFTurP5tY5wIPREgYrtedTaXn2MCt83m-zoq6NjxSKjFOklf7iZY6QUGOh84cY8UvHTw2zSCeJ0AdsJAuVxIyo0r_OLTA/s320/New%20clover%20flag.jpg" width="320" /></a></div><br /><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><br /></div><br /><span style="color: #222222;"><br />But this didn't really work either. I found some near hits: </span></span></span></div><div><span style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span></div><div><span style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">- a UK company called <a href="https://www.facebook.com/schmecken.uk" target="_blank">Schmecken</a> that has a logo very much like this: </span></span></div><div><span style="background-color: white;"><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEicnAq9ecPgGzU_YdSVBVWrvkVd8jR4nO5gXedyeyKqm0R0Xvne9ZguO3wQ_NjfW-64-rSeznfBJlZDRcBCEP6hZew9ipoBpOCGBL7G0oFiKReZTjdTF1UYrIm1xV4CKpNTBMzmUimpo717c1qZvxU6x6251j4PluahEP1xc4xr1HG1s9tWxMdJCGFGeIo/s1474/schmecken.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><img border="0" data-original-height="388" data-original-width="1474" height="84" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEicnAq9ecPgGzU_YdSVBVWrvkVd8jR4nO5gXedyeyKqm0R0Xvne9ZguO3wQ_NjfW-64-rSeznfBJlZDRcBCEP6hZew9ipoBpOCGBL7G0oFiKReZTjdTF1UYrIm1xV4CKpNTBMzmUimpo717c1qZvxU6x6251j4PluahEP1xc4xr1HG1s9tWxMdJCGFGeIo/s320/schmecken.jpg" width="320" /></span></a></div></span></div><div><span style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span></div><div><span style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">- a Finnish group on Twitter/X called <a href="https://twitter.com/ppsotu" target="_blank">Pohjois-Pohjanmaa</a> for social and health security association: </span></span></div><div><span style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgY6J1Fv2Seru-NoI_S850cJl77cwPUK8kHhyvsAMO9H-tguXr-IcOVrgCnFoAQcKQ-scm1vft5CLlW9yFaweAD5nIcvp16N2QxVWYj6FEj7_xbRXyXY080Jbcq83hEZnJ2GzBTsyjl8USkyTHyoHQbkAKSPiiV_4odKggC8F8JIxF2QkuZhgXWTgio5wA/s430/Finnish%20logo.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="230" data-original-width="430" height="115" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgY6J1Fv2Seru-NoI_S850cJl77cwPUK8kHhyvsAMO9H-tguXr-IcOVrgCnFoAQcKQ-scm1vft5CLlW9yFaweAD5nIcvp16N2QxVWYj6FEj7_xbRXyXY080Jbcq83hEZnJ2GzBTsyjl8USkyTHyoHQbkAKSPiiV_4odKggC8F8JIxF2QkuZhgXWTgio5wA/w215-h115/Finnish%20logo.jpg" width="215" /></a></div><br /><span style="color: #222222;">- a car company, <a href="https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100069781245495" target="_blank">Autoclover</a>: </span></span></span></div><div><span style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEj1ekATDcZZI77QUnZVZ70bM7UmgHnmZGSO79na5fiN0Rw5cL3TNxPsBoLMGlJeuPZLHnwq-lUgGcOAqRfiqKbzBLYQVmUieoz1o2-9OCFMEZZ0tt4cY8u-1QaNt5ABcw7MlDenHndkZZeCpvPmlB-mnip9DmHWJ9-r7FBnzW_ga6b6HACilCvyh98uLh4/s278/autoclover.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="276" data-original-width="278" height="207" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEj1ekATDcZZI77QUnZVZ70bM7UmgHnmZGSO79na5fiN0Rw5cL3TNxPsBoLMGlJeuPZLHnwq-lUgGcOAqRfiqKbzBLYQVmUieoz1o2-9OCFMEZZ0tt4cY8u-1QaNt5ABcw7MlDenHndkZZeCpvPmlB-mnip9DmHWJ9-r7FBnzW_ga6b6HACilCvyh98uLh4/w209-h207/autoclover.jpg" width="209" /></a></div><br /><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia;"><br />But nothing that was flag-like and Swiss. Is it possible that this is a one-off custom flag? </span></span></span></div><div><span style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span></div><div><span style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Then I was walking down the street in the town of St. Gallen (in northern Switzerland) and saw this stand-up box advertising the Swiss national lottery, Swisslos: </span></span></div><div><span style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span></div><div><span style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiCOUDnXx9vyC_5jKmXFpLCGeUjMVKD83riRzxzxdBeAfOomhGDX4qDCaNA6lnMBFeiKOsM6N3pkciacfofUS6clSDxIyCnoGJRaiJ1cvBI6EDV8GAZS5eNZoSUPG4ZjCnSxvWBc54AkN4qangPDG2ttgoh5CZi5YU0Kzn-S4NCczsT7bGDTas2LgJrxgM/s1494/Swisslos.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1494" data-original-width="590" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiCOUDnXx9vyC_5jKmXFpLCGeUjMVKD83riRzxzxdBeAfOomhGDX4qDCaNA6lnMBFeiKOsM6N3pkciacfofUS6clSDxIyCnoGJRaiJ1cvBI6EDV8GAZS5eNZoSUPG4ZjCnSxvWBc54AkN4qangPDG2ttgoh5CZi5YU0Kzn-S4NCczsT7bGDTas2LgJrxgM/w252-h640/Swisslos.jpg" width="252" /></a></div><br /><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia;">Which is the closest Swiss 4-lobed clover-like bit of iconography I can find. (Later I went back and looked deeper in my search-by-image results and found the Swisslos logo. Always go deeper.) </span></span></span></div><div><span style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span></div><div><span style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">But it's not an exact match. People who make flags are pretty picky about the details of their design. (See the brilliant <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnv5iKB2hl4" target="_blank">Roman Mars TED talk about flag design</a>. 18 minutes that will change the way you look at flags.) </span></span></div><div><span style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span></div><div><span style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">So I'm not convinced we know the answer. We're going to have to leave this as an open Challenge for the moment. I'll keep looking, and you, my Regular Readers, should do the same. IF you see it, post a comment here so we'll all know what it actually is. (And I, for my part, if I go back to that part of the Alps, I'll find the owner and ask!) </span></span></div><div><span style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span></div><div><span style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><span style="color: #990000;"><b>3. </b>I've seen some interesting vegetables before in farmer's markets before, but this one seems very <a data-abc="true" href="https://www.google.com/search?q=define+seussian&oq=define+seussian&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIHCAEQIRigATIHCAIQIRigATIHCAMQIRiPAtIBCDM3NTBqMGo3qAIAsAIA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8" style="color: #1119cc; text-decoration-line: none;" target="_blank">Seussian</a> to me. <b> What ARE these things? How would I eat one? </b></span> </span></span></p><div class="separator" style="background-color: white; clear: both; color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; text-align: center;"><a data-abc="true" href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiC3WwJbGoMinKbr0mKMKnsOLz6OklIyaRXNBFkdeThnMctiUSK_IZ_BTpJdoZ7mtvRHYo4htx-WIJZtCFDj7cQDwl8uUxLr9PYFY66eXC0faq5jtJwvbY7_gvE9fEQ5TkVuXhl5jf36_GkJCb78SjHNkrpsxBU9fZHS8MSafzChdSp5ZkOlSaQ8-Rcy4c/s1144/vegetable.jpg" style="color: #1119cc; margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em; text-decoration-line: none;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1130" data-original-width="1144" height="316" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiC3WwJbGoMinKbr0mKMKnsOLz6OklIyaRXNBFkdeThnMctiUSK_IZ_BTpJdoZ7mtvRHYo4htx-WIJZtCFDj7cQDwl8uUxLr9PYFY66eXC0faq5jtJwvbY7_gvE9fEQ5TkVuXhl5jf36_GkJCb78SjHNkrpsxBU9fZHS8MSafzChdSp5ZkOlSaQ8-Rcy4c/s320/vegetable.jpg" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; border: 1px solid rgb(238, 238, 238); box-shadow: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.1) 1px 1px 5px; padding: 5px; position: relative;" width="320" /></span></span></a></div><span style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">This one was easy: looks like a weird cabbage, smells like a cabbage, so my query was: </span></p><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: arial; font-size: medium;"><b> [ cone shaped cabbage ] </b></span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Which rapidly told me that this cabbage has a number of names: conehead, pointed, arrowhead, and sweetheart cabbage. It's described as having "...</span><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"> leaves, with variations of pea green colorings, are thin, broad, deeply veined, tightly enveloped lengthwise and bluntly pointed. The flavor of Conehead cabbage is mild and remarkably sweet, void of that bold cruciferous flavor that is most reminiscent of cabbage."</span></span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Naturally, I bought one for research purposes and ate it for most of the week. It is, indeed, sweetly flavored and is a lovely thing to have on your plate. (I just sautéed/steamed mine with a little olive oil, garlic, and salt. Yum!) </span></p><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><br class="Apple-interchange-newline" /></span></p><h3 style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;">SearchResearch Lessons </span></span></h3><p></p><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><b>1. Mind your assumptions!</b> In the colored egg Challenge I had <i>assumed</i> that the eggs in question were naturally colored like that. I was prepared to learn that Swiss chickens are some interesting breed that lay technicolor eggs. It took me a while to undo that assumption and figure out that they're dyed eggs. </span></span></p><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><b style="font-family: georgia;">2. Even unreliable sources can be useful.</b><span style="font-family: georgia;"> I found that Reddit post about hard-boiled Swiss eggs to </span><i style="font-family: georgia;">crack the case</i><span style="font-family: georgia;"> (so to speak), but I know that Reddit can be unreliable. So when I checked, I was pleased to find MANY sources confirming that colored eggs are hardboiled, just like this detective. </span></span></p><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><b>3. Read the fine print.</b> I skipped the fine print on the package partly because it was small and partly because it was in German, and while I can read lots of German, I didn't know what </span><i style="background-color: transparent; font-family: georgia;">Aus Freilandhaltung </i><span style="background-color: transparent; font-family: georgia;">meant, so I stopped reading. FWIW, I know what </span><i style="background-color: transparent; font-family: georgia;">gekocht </i><span style="background-color: transparent; font-family: georgia;">and </span><i style="background-color: transparent; font-family: georgia;">gefärbt </i><span style="background-color: transparent; font-family: georgia;">mean... but I'd stopped reading too early. </span></span></p><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><span style="background-color: transparent; font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><b>4. Some Challenges don't come easily.</b> The identity of the flag has not yet been cracked! It's an open case. Sometimes, that's the way it goes. </span></span></p><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /></span></p><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;">Keep searching! </span></span></p><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><br /></p></div>Dan Russellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13603209997260423532noreply@blogger.com13tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4953008377950396317.post-5915489454895399682023-10-24T21:16:00.003-07:002023-10-24T21:22:00.592-07:00SearchResearch Challenge (10/25/23): Three little Swiss mysteries?<p><span style="color: #2b00fe; font-family: georgia; font-size: x-large;"><b><i> I'm currently living and teaching in Zürich until the end of the year, </i></b></span></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEh4TK69AKIxoN7UkGYrb5Fy6VXKW2Fz6GepR94xN_rIHS_s2pcDkq0atE0pFFBJ1M_aaOQnjwfa__rzL7m5dif-G6DvMqC_OKh-DOWTU4Z4dCSgn-LOhuIg4pG6V_jSoXHGCuk4OBtK7urFGVsTCNsmgNzVpSPxOuXer0OuG6YRJIN1Q5Jjz1MUQcixeVw/s1956/Zurich%20by%20night.jpg" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1288" data-original-width="1956" height="422" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEh4TK69AKIxoN7UkGYrb5Fy6VXKW2Fz6GepR94xN_rIHS_s2pcDkq0atE0pFFBJ1M_aaOQnjwfa__rzL7m5dif-G6DvMqC_OKh-DOWTU4Z4dCSgn-LOhuIg4pG6V_jSoXHGCuk4OBtK7urFGVsTCNsmgNzVpSPxOuXer0OuG6YRJIN1Q5Jjz1MUQcixeVw/w640-h422/Zurich%20by%20night.jpg" width="640" /></span></a></div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">.. here in the heart of Switzerland. I'm teaching for this semester at the University of Zürich--and you only get one guess as to what I'm teaching. That's right, I'm here to teach the course on Human-Computer Interaction and AI over the 14-week semester.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">(In other words, what should we be doing to design and build AI systems so that people can understand and use them. Hence last week's Challenge about getting LLMs to be useful in search tasks.)</span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">But as a person who's relatively new to Switzerland, I've found a few things that are charming and puzzling at the same time. Can you help me figure out what's going on in each of these cases? </span></p><p><span style="color: #990000; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><b>1. Why are these eggs colored orange/yellow? </b>I bought them in the local grocery store where they were sitting out on the shelf, unrefrigerated. The label on the container says <i>Schweizer Eier</i> (Swiss eggs). I've seen many different colored eggs from friends who have chickens (blue, green, brown, some with spots), still, this is extraordinary color.<b> But what's the story here? What kind of chicken would produce these eggs? </b></span></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEg-hfOZ07TJW5JydDvQlSTvuaGfptiTMpv3I4oSYVZDH976TChYiN6lL-BByK6e4lxyjxGxFKmZb6ynerk8l2HLMc_b4RCNHAp0_48YnzIkH4L3fDM6MR93gVMcVMxJ9j6NMvDZD-P70y2meqtV56hN4uksWtJOyDwTJbf79D0LEpW_bir7lJ2BDlQQlwU/s1858/eggs.jpg" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1286" data-original-width="1858" height="442" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEg-hfOZ07TJW5JydDvQlSTvuaGfptiTMpv3I4oSYVZDH976TChYiN6lL-BByK6e4lxyjxGxFKmZb6ynerk8l2HLMc_b4RCNHAp0_48YnzIkH4L3fDM6MR93gVMcVMxJ9j6NMvDZD-P70y2meqtV56hN4uksWtJOyDwTJbf79D0LEpW_bir7lJ2BDlQQlwU/w640-h442/eggs.jpg" width="640" /></span></a></div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span><p><span style="color: #990000; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><b>2. </b>While on a hike in the Alps (near Rigi Scheidegg, if that helps), I came across this flag--and I have no idea what kind of a flag this is. What does it represent? (It might help to know that the Swiss are a little flag-crazy. There is traditional Swiss flag-tossing (a kind of bucolic, even serene sport... <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhrrU_U9agU" target="_blank">watch the video</a>), and flags seem to abound. <b>Given the level of </b><a href="https://www.nava.org/" style="font-weight: bold;" target="_blank">vexillological</a><b> interest here, it must signify something, but what? </b></span></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjHIaNpcoAd76lO0aU9M1Jwk8WQL-5S3guSbSjqpC_GwLQlU-3UB3RsQXFZqKqnt8H02yUpO5hzv0fJhTKXnoXYrB7iOeSWo6V0NidhlS297ROEKOav9sHUyGJwH_Rnt_5bNWi3zLugchKecSbL2cVSMUqOA4_vI30MLiY4_4A9DJ6i1it9CK9wMbwODHI/s1384/flag.jpg" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1382" data-original-width="1384" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjHIaNpcoAd76lO0aU9M1Jwk8WQL-5S3guSbSjqpC_GwLQlU-3UB3RsQXFZqKqnt8H02yUpO5hzv0fJhTKXnoXYrB7iOeSWo6V0NidhlS297ROEKOav9sHUyGJwH_Rnt_5bNWi3zLugchKecSbL2cVSMUqOA4_vI30MLiY4_4A9DJ6i1it9CK9wMbwODHI/w640-h640/flag.jpg" width="640" /></span></a></div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><span style="color: #990000;"><b>3. </b>I've seen some interesting vegetables before in farmer's markets before, but this one seems very <a href="https://www.google.com/search?q=define+seussian&oq=define+seussian&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIHCAEQIRigATIHCAIQIRigATIHCAMQIRiPAtIBCDM3NTBqMGo3qAIAsAIA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8" target="_blank">Seussian</a> to me. <b> What ARE these things? How would I eat one? </b></span> </span></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiC3WwJbGoMinKbr0mKMKnsOLz6OklIyaRXNBFkdeThnMctiUSK_IZ_BTpJdoZ7mtvRHYo4htx-WIJZtCFDj7cQDwl8uUxLr9PYFY66eXC0faq5jtJwvbY7_gvE9fEQ5TkVuXhl5jf36_GkJCb78SjHNkrpsxBU9fZHS8MSafzChdSp5ZkOlSaQ8-Rcy4c/s1144/vegetable.jpg" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1130" data-original-width="1144" height="316" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiC3WwJbGoMinKbr0mKMKnsOLz6OklIyaRXNBFkdeThnMctiUSK_IZ_BTpJdoZ7mtvRHYo4htx-WIJZtCFDj7cQDwl8uUxLr9PYFY66eXC0faq5jtJwvbY7_gvE9fEQ5TkVuXhl5jf36_GkJCb78SjHNkrpsxBU9fZHS8MSafzChdSp5ZkOlSaQ8-Rcy4c/s320/vegetable.jpg" width="320" /></span></a></div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Of course, we want to know how you found the answers to each Challenge. Share your search tricks with us! </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Keep searching! </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></p><p><br /></p>Dan Russellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13603209997260423532noreply@blogger.com13tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4953008377950396317.post-85833670393864347612023-10-18T04:03:00.005-07:002023-10-19T02:06:09.372-07:00Answer: How might we best use LLMs for online medical research?<p> <i style="background-color: white; color: #783f04; font-family: georgia; font-size: x-large;"><b>Can we count on LLMs for medical advice? </b></i></p><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13.2px;"></p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="background: rgb(255, 255, 255); border: 1px solid rgb(238, 238, 238); box-shadow: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.1) 1px 1px 5px; color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13.2px; margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto; padding: 5px; position: relative;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a data-abc="true" href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjPsixRCUh5Wp9J8GnENZ9vu4w-wrdN6TSpX_UUucZIfk2G2qlgb26P-QVkO1eO8-vTp21CXK1sQx62BfSM5maksMpwbnTWB3xAhxB7fNntg6F3RycvHs48d5mhAf2JxPDYm3I5N684Uu8VstS0V6VWyr5a6ZQ-15QJgm2y0WE5Om7MkoNiS6DVFGoaSZg/s1024/DALL%C2%B7E%202023-10-04%2008.42.15%20-%20black%20medical%20scientist%20looking%20for%20answers%20in%20a%20beaker%20with%20bubbles%20that's%20full%20of%20bits%20of%20text%20pieces%20of%20paper%20and%20books%20water%20color%20style%20andrew%20wy.png" style="color: #1119cc; margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto; text-decoration-line: none;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1024" data-original-width="1024" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjPsixRCUh5Wp9J8GnENZ9vu4w-wrdN6TSpX_UUucZIfk2G2qlgb26P-QVkO1eO8-vTp21CXK1sQx62BfSM5maksMpwbnTWB3xAhxB7fNntg6F3RycvHs48d5mhAf2JxPDYm3I5N684Uu8VstS0V6VWyr5a6ZQ-15QJgm2y0WE5Om7MkoNiS6DVFGoaSZg/w640-h640/DALL%C2%B7E%202023-10-04%2008.42.15%20-%20black%20medical%20scientist%20looking%20for%20answers%20in%20a%20beaker%20with%20bubbles%20that's%20full%20of%20bits%20of%20text%20pieces%20of%20paper%20and%20books%20water%20color%20style%20andrew%20wy.png" style="background: transparent; border: none; box-shadow: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.1) 0px 0px 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative;" width="640" /></span></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="font-size: 10.56px; text-align: center;"><span style="font-family: georgia;">Illustration by DALL-E of a medical scientist doing research</span></td></tr></tbody></table><span style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><br /></span><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">And it's pretty clear that LLMs and associated generative AI tools (see the illustration above, which is a lovely generated image by DALL-E) can come in pretty handy when given decent prompts. </span></p><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Our SearchResearch Challenge for this week was an open-ended Challenge intended to probe the limits and capabilities of high-stakes research. </span></p><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Here was the Challenge for the week: </span></p><blockquote style="background-color: white; border: none; color: #222222; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><p><span style="color: #990000;"><b><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">1. What good advice can we give a person who wants to use an LLM for high-stakes research into a medical question? We know people are doing this, and all of our ranting about LLMs won't stop them--but can we find ways of using LLMs and specific LLM/AI tools to improve the search process? What would you say to people who are doing this? (Aside from "be very, very careful.") </span></b></span></p></blockquote><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia;">I found some pretty serious problems in asking LLMs for medical advice. The overall impression I have is that LLMs just are </span><b style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia;">NOT</b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia;"> ready for use in medical searching. There are other possible uses, but asking an LLM for medical information is basically rolling the dice--you might get good info, and you might get terrible info. My recommendation: </span></span></p><p style="background-color: white; text-align: center;"><span style="color: red; font-size: medium;"><b><span style="font-family: arial;">DON'T ASK ANY LLM FOR MEDICAL INFORMATION,<br /></span></b><span><b><span style="font-family: arial;">especially diagnostic and treatment information</span></b><span style="font-family: georgia;"> </span></span></span></p><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></p><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">I spent several hours testing out different kinds of prompts, testing out several popular LLMs. This isn't all of the testing I did, but I'm summarizing so it doesn't go on forever and ever. </span></p><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">I'm grouping my comments by three main types of failure: </span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #660000; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><b><i>Citations are wrong (and if they're made up, what else is made up?): </i></b></span></p><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: large;"><b>Bard: </b></span><b style="font-family: georgia; font-size: large;"> </b></p><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed; font-size: medium;"><span style="color: #222222;">Prompt to Bard: "</span><span style="color: #222222;">What is the latest literature on Glucagon-Like Peptide-1 Receptor Agonists (GLP-1 RAs)? Give citations for articles you mention."</span></span><span style="background-color: transparent;"> </span></p></blockquote><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-size: large;">Bard totally made up citations. Complete BS. Example: </span><span style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-size: large;">Here is a purported summary of some of the latest literature on GLP-1 RAs, with citations for the articles mentioned: </span></span><br /><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed; font-size: medium;"><span style="color: #222222;">Bard: </span><span style="color: #222222;">GLP-1 RAs may reduce the risk of all-cause death in people with type 2 diabetes. A recent study published in the journal Diabetes Care found that GLP-1 RA users had a 14% lower risk of death from all causes than people who did not use GLP-1 RAs. It suggested a citation: Zhang H, et al. Association of Glucagon-Like Peptide-1 Receptor Agonist Use With All-Cause Mortality in Patients With Type 2 Diabetes. Diabetes Care. 2023;46(3):503-511.)</span></span></p></blockquote><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia;">But this is utterly wrong: No such articles exist. Given that, do you still believe the assertion that GLP-1 RA users have a 14% lower risk of death? Where did it pull that from? I have no idea, and neither does Bard. </span></span></p><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><b>GPT-4: </b>Interestingly, when I gave the same prompt to GPT-4 it gave real citations (after disclaiming that it was only up-to-date as of Jan 2022). Interestingly, it did not try to summarize the literature (as Bard did), but just gave a few citations. It also gave good advice about how to further the research task: "I recommend using databases like PubMed or Google Scholar and searching for terms related to GLP-1 RAs." That's pretty reasonable. </span></p><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><b>Claude: </b>Same prompt, but very different citations. That's fine, they're real citations, but the summaries of the articles were fairly off--they seemed to summarize different papers than the ones they linked to! What's up with that? </span></p><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><br /></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #660000; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><b><i>Output is inconsistent with itself: </i></b></span></p><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"></blockquote><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: large;"><b>Bard: </b>Here I'm intentionally asking a question that a patient might ask, "why is skin cancer more deadly than liver cancer?" knowing full well that this is the opposite of the facts. </span><br /><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed; font-size: medium;">Prompt to Bard: "Why is skin cancer more deadly than liver cancer?" </span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed; font-size: medium;"><span style="color: #222222;">Bard: </span><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="color: #222222;">Skin cancer is not more deadly than liver cancer overall. In fact, the 5-year survival rate for all skin cancer is 99%, while the 5-year survival rate for liver cancer is 19.6%. However, there is one type of skin cancer, melanoma, which is more deadly than liver cancer. <i>Melanoma has a 5-year survival rate of 92.3%</i>, which is <i>lower</i> than the 5-year survival rate for liver cancer.</span></span></span></p></blockquote><p style="text-align: left;"> </p><p style="background-color: white; text-align: left;"><span style="background-color: transparent; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Bard got the first part right, but the assertion that "melanoma has a 5-year survival rate of 92.3%, which is lower than the 5-year survival rate for liver cancer" doesn't make sense (how is 92.3 lower than 19.6?). What's up with that? </span></span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: large;"><b>GPT-4: </b>Once again, ChatGPT-4 gives a pretty reasonable answer. First, it questions my assumption (that skin cancer is more deadly), and then lists reasons why people might consider some types of cancers more deadly than others. It's quite a reasonable argument, and ends with reasonable advice about differentiating between different kinds of cancers when discussing prognosis and mortality. </span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: large;"><b>Claude:</b> Gives an answer much like Bard, but doesn't mix up the stats. It's actually mostly correct. </span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: large;"><br /></span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: large;"><i><span style="color: #660000;"><b>Don't trust reasoning of LLMs:</b> </span></i></span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">I asked each of the 3 LLMs this question:</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: large;"> "</span><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">If it takes 3 days to clear up an infection with a 10 unit dose of an antibiotic, how long will it take if I use 30 units per day?" </span></span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">This, of course, is a terrible idea. Don't fool around with treatment plans! </span></span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">But when I asked Bard, it gave a quite reasonable framing of the question... </span></span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><b>Bard: </b></span></span></p><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Roboto Condensed; font-size: medium;">It is important to follow the prescribed dosage of antibiotics to ensure their effectiveness and avoid potential adverse effects. Taking a higher dose than recommended can lead to various complications and may not necessarily clear up the infection faster.</span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed; font-size: medium;">In this case, if a 10-unit dose of an antibiotic is prescribed to clear up an infection in 3 days, it is advisable to stick to that dosage and duration. Increasing the dose to 30 units per day could potentially lead to adverse effects without necessarily shortening the treatment duration.</span></span></p></blockquote><p> </p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><b>GPT-4: </b>Gives a rather similar reply: </span></p><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Roboto Condensed; font-size: medium;">I must preface my response by emphasizing that you should never adjust medication doses without consulting a healthcare professional. Self-adjusting doses can lead to unwanted side effects, antibiotic resistance, or ineffective treatment.</span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Roboto Condensed; font-size: medium;">That said, based solely on the information you've provided and treating it as a theoretical exercise, the relationship between dosage and time isn't necessarily linear. The effectiveness of antibiotics depends on factors like... </span></p></blockquote><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">But Claude totally bobbled this one with an answer that's long on math and utterly missing common sense reasoning about drug therapy. </span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><b><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Claude: </span></b></p><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed; font-size: medium;">Okay, let's think through this step-by-step:<span style="background-color: transparent;"> </span></span></p></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed; font-size: medium;">It takes 3 days to clear up the infection with a 10 unit daily dose of the antibiotic</span></p></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed; font-size: medium;">So over the 3 days, the total dose is 3 * 10 = 30 units</span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed; font-size: medium;">Now we are using 30 units per day instead of 10 units per day</span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed; font-size: medium;">Since the total dose needed to clear the infection is 30 units:</span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed; font-size: medium;">If we give 30 units per day, it should clear the infection in 1 day</span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed; font-size: medium;">So in summary:</span></p></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed; font-size: medium;">Total dose needed is 30 units</span></p></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed; font-size: medium;">At 10 units per day, it takes 3 days</span></p></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed; font-size: medium;">At 30 units per day, the total dose of 30 units is given in 1 day</span></p></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed; font-size: medium;">Therefore, if the daily dose is increased to 30 units per day, the infection should clear up in 1 day.</span></p></blockquote><p style="background-color: white;"></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Which is a terrible idea. </span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">You see where this is headed: Each of the LLMs has a very different training set, sets of guidelines, and text production models. </span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">In general, GPT-4 gives much more extensive answers to questions, and avoids summarizing technical medical texts. I wasn't able to trip it up (but I didn't really push on the boundaries). </span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">By contrast, Bard always gives much shorter answers, frequently hallucinating reports and studies. </span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">And Claude is somewhere in the middle with middle-length texts, but will give answers that defy common sense. (Don't ever modify your drug plan without talking with your physician!) </span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #660000; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><b>What can we do that is useful? </b></span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">My direct advice would be to NOT ask for a diagnosis or suggestions for treatment. That's probably still dangerous. </span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><i>On the other hand</i>... I did find some value in asking LLMs for descriptions of medical conditions, therapies, and medicines. This makes sense because there is a lot of training data out there on such topics. So asking questions like "what is the IT band?" or "what are some side effects of taking cough medicine?" </span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: large;"><b>SearchResearch Lessons</b> </span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">I could go on and on, showing all kinds of subtle errors and mistakes that the models make. </span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><span style="color: #990000;"><b><i>1. Bottom line: They're not ready for medical advice.</i> </b></span>They might be in the future, but at the moment, they're all too able to make errors that could be serious. </span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><b><span style="color: #990000;"><i>2. They all give very different kinds of answers</i>.</span></b> GPT-4 tends to give great details about a condition, going into enormous detail. If that's what you want, go there. For shorter answers at a slightly easier-to-read level, visit Bard. </span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><i><b><span style="color: #990000;">3. Compare and contrast.</span></b></i> All of the LLMs (including ones I don't mention here) have rather different outputs. It's worth looking at them side-by-side. </span></p><p style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><b><span style="color: #990000;"><i>4. Don't forget your ordinary search skills.</i> </span></b> Do I really need to say this? Fact-check every thing, and look for important highly reliable sources in your quest. </span></p><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Keep searching! </span></p>Dan Russellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13603209997260423532noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4953008377950396317.post-44706832234426438432023-10-04T00:08:00.003-07:002023-10-04T00:08:34.725-07:00SearchResearch Challenge (10/4/23): How might we best use LLMs for online medical research? <p><span style="color: #783f04; font-family: georgia; font-size: x-large;"><i><b>LLMs are all the rage these days... </b></i></span></p><p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjPsixRCUh5Wp9J8GnENZ9vu4w-wrdN6TSpX_UUucZIfk2G2qlgb26P-QVkO1eO8-vTp21CXK1sQx62BfSM5maksMpwbnTWB3xAhxB7fNntg6F3RycvHs48d5mhAf2JxPDYm3I5N684Uu8VstS0V6VWyr5a6ZQ-15QJgm2y0WE5Om7MkoNiS6DVFGoaSZg/s1024/DALL%C2%B7E%202023-10-04%2008.42.15%20-%20black%20medical%20scientist%20looking%20for%20answers%20in%20a%20beaker%20with%20bubbles%20that's%20full%20of%20bits%20of%20text%20pieces%20of%20paper%20and%20books%20water%20color%20style%20andrew%20wy.png" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1024" data-original-width="1024" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjPsixRCUh5Wp9J8GnENZ9vu4w-wrdN6TSpX_UUucZIfk2G2qlgb26P-QVkO1eO8-vTp21CXK1sQx62BfSM5maksMpwbnTWB3xAhxB7fNntg6F3RycvHs48d5mhAf2JxPDYm3I5N684Uu8VstS0V6VWyr5a6ZQ-15QJgm2y0WE5Om7MkoNiS6DVFGoaSZg/w640-h640/DALL%C2%B7E%202023-10-04%2008.42.15%20-%20black%20medical%20scientist%20looking%20for%20answers%20in%20a%20beaker%20with%20bubbles%20that's%20full%20of%20bits%20of%20text%20pieces%20of%20paper%20and%20books%20water%20color%20style%20andrew%20wy.png" width="640" /></span></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><span style="font-family: georgia;">Illustration by DALL-E of a medical scientist doing research</span></td></tr></tbody></table><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br />Some studies show that office workers who use LLMs (e.g., Google's Bard or OpenAI's ChatGPT) are more productive... on the tasks that they measured. (At least that's <a href="https://news.mit.edu/2023/study-finds-chatgpt-boosts-worker-productivity-writing-0714" target="_blank">MIT's department of economics conclusion</a>.) </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">And it's pretty clear that LLMs and associated generative AI tools (see the illustration above) can come in pretty handy when given decent prompts. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Our SearchResearch Challenge for this week is an open-ended Challenge. For these Challenges, I usually know what the "right" answer is and how to find it. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">But this week, this really is a call for the SRS community to help identify ways of using LLMs to do a very specific kind of research--a kind that we care a lot about--<i>medical research</i>. Here's the Challenge for the week: </span></p><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0 0 0 40px; padding: 0px;"><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="color: #990000; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><b>1. What good advice can we give a person who wants to use an LLM for high-stakes research into a medical question? We know people are doing this, and all of our ranting about LLMs won't stop them--but can we find ways of using LLMs and specific LLM/AI tools to improve the search process? What would you say to people who are doing this? (Aside from "be very, very careful.") </b></span></p></blockquote><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Maybe the point of using an LLM in "medical research" mode is just to help us to find really great search terms to use in regular web-search. I'm not sure. But if so, let's figure that out. Are there other ways of using LLMs to get better results faster? Or will the search for truth in LLMs be a bust? </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">I'm focusing on <i>medical research</i> because it is high stakes, it's not okay to just skate on past little errors and unfortunate phrasing. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">A big problem here is that most of us are not medical experts, so it's going to be difficult to validate what the LLM tells you. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">My suggestion: Try doing a few medical search tasks in a medical area that you know something about. Nearly everyone has been forced to become a mini-expert in some medical area. I'm a mini-expert in a couple of really unusual types of cancer (family members, not me!) when I had to learn enough to make good recommendations to them. So I can explore what an LLM tells me about that with some confidence that I'll have a basic understanding of an esoteric area. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">I'll be leaving comments in the thread this week (more than usual) as I work on this question as well. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Let's figure out what advice we can give to LLM users. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">When you write your comments in the thread, be sure to tell us which LLMs you've been using. (There are a lot of them out there, all with very different behaviors. Let's be sure to keep our results limited appropriately.) </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">And be sure to include the search path you followed (which now will include LLM prompts). Mention the dead ends you found and strategies that just don't seem to work. Negative results are really important here! </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Keep searching! </span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></p><p><br /></p>Dan Russellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13603209997260423532noreply@blogger.com8tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4953008377950396317.post-36943739001200076022023-09-27T10:25:00.002-07:002023-09-27T10:38:17.395-07:00Answer: What is dietary fiber?<p><span style="font-size: x-large;"> <b style="background-color: white; color: #783f04; font-family: georgia;"><i>It seems obvious... </i></b></span></p><div class="separator" style="background-color: white; clear: both; color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13.2px; text-align: center;"><a data-abc="true" href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEj_ftNDqvlawiGDSOnD-G4dpxocRqIzelOPObXmxuNH1dr4JVGGJRcyfclhQXy2xYMiKBLB04HgtTLO_ReBJ5Wvmvh7kaPNWJCRsSF2yeIrbYM_TyqlxJX2UCogPiMlwPEVgrfZ8GevZZQ6Ct4phVuEiHSjEwpP1Ap-luMQQHEs5Ytb7hHqhxVrM76smNo/s2414/veggies.jpg" style="color: #1119cc; margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em; text-decoration-line: none;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1296" data-original-width="2414" height="344" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEj_ftNDqvlawiGDSOnD-G4dpxocRqIzelOPObXmxuNH1dr4JVGGJRcyfclhQXy2xYMiKBLB04HgtTLO_ReBJ5Wvmvh7kaPNWJCRsSF2yeIrbYM_TyqlxJX2UCogPiMlwPEVgrfZ8GevZZQ6Ct4phVuEiHSjEwpP1Ap-luMQQHEs5Ytb7hHqhxVrM76smNo/w640-h344/veggies.jpg" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; border: 1px solid rgb(238, 238, 238); box-shadow: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.1) 1px 1px 5px; padding: 5px; position: relative;" width="640" /></span></a></div><span style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: georgia;"><div><br /></div><span style="font-size: medium;">.. but as I said, I suddenly realized that I didn't really understand what "fiber in my diet" really meant. </span></span><div><span style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span></div><div><span style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><i>This happens all the time</i>. There's a kind of skill of recognizing that something isn't lining up--of knowing that you don't quite know what something really is. </span></span></div><div><span style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span></div><div><span style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;">As you might have noticed, a lot of these posts start with "I didn't know..." </span></span><div style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span></div><div style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;">In this particular case, I thought I knew was "dietary fiber" was. Isn't <i>fiber</i> just the indigestible part of your food--you know, the little threads, husks, hulls, and tiny fragments that just pass straight through without much digestion seeming to take place? </span></span></div><div style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span></div><div style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;">But as I noticed when I let my cereal sit for too long in the milk, things that say they have fiber in them (like my whole grain cereal) often don't <i>look</i> like there's anything fibrous within. There's nothing like the kernels of corn or bits of apple skin that (as far as I can tell) are untouched by my digestive juices. How could there be any "fiber" there? </span></span></div><div style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span></div><div style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;">So... what is <i>fiber</i> really? It's obviously not just undigested bits of food. </span></span></div><div style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span></div><div style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;">Can you help me understand what's going on here? Today's Challenges are: </span></span></div><div style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span></div><div style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span></div><div style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><span style="color: #990000; font-family: georgia;"><b><span style="font-size: medium;">1. So what, really, is dietary fiber? Is it something more than indigestible bits like wheat bran, corn kernels, and rice husks? </span></b></span></div><div style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><span style="color: #990000; font-family: georgia;"><b><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /></span></b></span></div><div style="background-color: white;"><div style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><br class="Apple-interchange-newline" />I wanted to start with the basics. First query: </span></span></div><div style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;"> </span></span></div><div style="color: #222222;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"> </span><b><span style="font-family: arial;"> [ define fiber ] <br /></span></b></span><br /></div><div style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><div class="separator" style="clear: both; font-size: 13.2px; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiaX4LS5EuV6euabtHd895CzT7Xk2CbxLfadWtVYg5aFZFh1QcybDmqgSRjjmG4zQJAPEh684h6IQz4blxQGF28fBr66KRMuLS0XKulXp55QZDniGLtBEXEn4dragnDZ3T6Hi7UqFbPQD9qTbm3FTCQ8rymn1sPfTV0D5jw6iEpZoTIPa_OhOmHvIlhZWY/s716/fiber%20definition.jpg" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="713" data-original-width="716" height="638" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiaX4LS5EuV6euabtHd895CzT7Xk2CbxLfadWtVYg5aFZFh1QcybDmqgSRjjmG4zQJAPEh684h6IQz4blxQGF28fBr66KRMuLS0XKulXp55QZDniGLtBEXEn4dragnDZ3T6Hi7UqFbPQD9qTbm3FTCQ8rymn1sPfTV0D5jw6iEpZoTIPa_OhOmHvIlhZWY/w640-h638/fiber%20definition.jpg" width="640" /></a></div><br /><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;">This starts to untangle part of my confusion. I was thinking of <i>dietary fiber</i> as a kind of <i>textile-like fiber</i>. That is, my mental model of "fiber in food" was based on what I thought of as a fiber that I might see in clothing or the husk of a seed. This is very much along the lines of that word you see at the bottom of the definition, "roughage." </span></span></div><div style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span></div><div style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;">But reading carefully, I learned that "fiber" (or "fibre") is also a "dietary material containing substances such as cellulose, lignin, and pectin that are resistant to the action of digestive enzymes." </span></span></div><div style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span></div><div style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;">And THAT is a surprise. It means that the fiber in my diet can be pretty non-fibrous. </span></span></div><div style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span></div><div style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;">Just a few weeks ago I had way too many plums on the tree at my house, so I spent a few happy hours making jelly and jam. One of the steps in the process is to put <i>pectin</i> into the mix. But when I do that, I can see that the pectin dissolves into a clear liquid... there aren't any obvious fibers that look like roughage. </span></span></div><div style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: georgia;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /></span></span></div><div style="color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">I was curious about <i>lignin </i>and <i>cellulose</i>, so I looked up those terms as well. Are they <i>fibrous</i> in the way I'd expected? </span></div><div style="color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div style="color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Answer: NO! If you look at images of lignin, cellulose, or pectin, it's pretty clear that all of those come in powdered form--and if you look for [ liquid cellulose ] or [ liquid pectin ] it's pretty obvious that those don't have any roughage in them. </span></div><div style="color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div style="color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">So <i>dietary fiber</i> must mean something other than the roughage you get from (say) celery. </span></div><div style="color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div style="color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">My next query was for: </span></div><div style="color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: arial; font-size: medium;"><b><br /></b></span></div><div style="color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: arial; font-size: medium;"><b> [ fiber in food ] </b></span></div><div style="color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div style="color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">and I quickly learned that fiber is, indeed, not just the rough indigestible bits, but is actually all the long-chain molecules that make up those indigestible bits! </span></div><div style="color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-size: medium;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia;">As the <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietary_fiber" target="_blank">Wikipedia entry on dietary fiber </a>tells us "</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia;">Dietary fiber consists of non-starch polysaccharides and other plant components such as cellulose, resistant starch, resistant dextrins, inulin, lignins, chitins (in fungi), pectins, beta-glucans, and oligosaccharides." </span></span></div><div><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Okay. I now know that "dietary fiber" is really all of those complex (long-chain) molecules in the food I eat. So, "high fiber foods" have a lot of those chemicals AND roughage. </span></div><div><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">But wait... there's more! </span></div><div><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">I also learned by reading some of the links from the SERP that there are two kinds of dietary fiber! There's "soluble" and "insoluble," that is, fiber that dissolves, and fiber that doesn't. </span></div><div><span style="color: #222222; font-family: arial; font-size: medium;"><b><br /></b></span></div><div><span style="color: #222222; font-family: arial; font-size: medium;"><b> [ soluble insoluble fiber ] </b></span></div><div><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">The first result is to the <a href="https://medlineplus.gov/ency/article/002136.htm" target="_blank">Medline page about dietary fiber</a>, which includes this: </span></div><div><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia;"><br /></span></div></div></div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><div><div style="background-color: white;"><div><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed;"><span style="color: #222222;">"</span><span style="color: #222222;">There are 2 different types of fiber -- soluble and insoluble. Both are important for health, digestion, and preventing diseases.</span></span></div></div></div><div><div style="background-color: white;"><div><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Roboto Condensed;"><br /></span></div></div></div><div><div style="background-color: white;"><div><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Roboto Condensed;">Soluble fiber attracts water and turns to gel during digestion. This slows digestion. Soluble fiber is found in oat bran, barley, nuts, seeds, beans, lentils, peas, and some fruits and vegetables. It is also found in psyllium, a common fiber supplement. Some types of soluble fiber may help lower risk of heart disease.</span></div></div></div><div><div style="background-color: white;"><div><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Roboto Condensed;"><br /></span></div></div></div><div><div style="background-color: white;"><div><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Roboto Condensed;">Insoluble fiber is found in foods such as wheat bran, vegetables, and whole grains. It adds bulk to the stool and appears to help food pass more quickly through the stomach and intestines." </span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><div style="background-color: white;"><div><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Ah ha! So there really are two kinds of fibers in our food. The soluble kind and the insoluble kind. </span></div><div><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #222222; font-family: georgia;"><div><span style="font-size: medium;">Insoluble fiber: This type of fiber does not get dissolved in the body and is also known as “roughage”, helping to clear out the intestinal tract. Since it's not broken down in the body, insoluble fiber has effectively zero calories. This is why a high fiber diet is recommended for weight loss as insoluble fiber will fill you up and pass through your body unchanged. </span></div><div><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-size: medium;">Soluble fiber: By contrast, this kind of fiber is a bit more complex than the other. Unlike insoluble fiber, soluble fiber dissolves making a gel like substance, which is incredibly handy for slip/sliding your gut contents along. </span></div><div><br /></div></span></div><div style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13.2px;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div></div><div style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13.2px;"><span style="color: #990000; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><b>2. What is the current recommendation for dietary fiber in my diet? Is 5 grams of fiber in a serving a lot? Or is it a little? </b></span></div><div style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13.2px;"><span style="color: #990000; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><b><br /></b></span></div><div style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">A quick search for: </span></div><div style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: arial; font-size: medium;"><b> [ dietary fiber recommendations ] </b></span></div><div style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">generated a lot of hits. Interestingly, when you compare the top 5 reputable sources, you see this: </span></div></div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><div><div style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div></div><div><div style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><div><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/nutrition-and-healthy-eating/in-depth/high-fiber-foods/art-20050948#:~:text=Women%20should%20try%20to%20eat,It%20can%20vary%20among%20brands." target="_blank">Mayo Clinic</a> – Women: 21 to 25 grams / day; men: 30 to 38 grams / day</span></div></div></div><div><div style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><div><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://www.ucsfhealth.org/education/increasing-fiber-intake" target="_blank">UCSF</a> – everyone: 25 to 30 grams / day from food, not supplements </span></div></div></div><div><div style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><div><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9298262/" target="_blank">NIH</a> -everyone: 25-29 grams / day (more than 30 grams would be better) </span></div></div></div><div><div style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><div><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/should-i-be-eating-more-fiber-2019022115927" target="_blank">Harvard</a> – people < 50 years, 25 grams for women and 38 grams for men.<span style="background-color: transparent;"> </span></span></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><div><div style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><div><span style="font-family: Roboto Condensed; font-size: medium;"> For people > 49, Women and men should have 21 and 30 daily grams</span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><div style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div></div><div style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Oddly, none of the sources break down the amount of fiber by soluble vs. insoluble. But it's clear that "fiber from food" solves a lot of the soluble/insoluble question by providing both in roughly equal quantities. </span></div><div style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Basically, if you can dissolve the food in water, it's got soluble fiber. If it doesn't dissolve, it's insoluble fiber. You need both. </span></div><div style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><b><br /></b></span></div><div style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><b>Bottom line: </b>Women need slightly less fiber than men, but everyone needs roughly 30 grams / day. </span></div><div style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><span style="font-family: georgia;">If you look up various foods (after doing a query like </span><b><span style="font-family: arial;">[ data set food fiber amount ]</span></b><span style="font-family: georgia;">), you'll probably end up on the </span><a href="https://www.nal.usda.gov/sites/default/files/page-files/Total_Dietary_Fiber.pdf" style="font-family: georgia;" target="_blank">USDA's list of foods with the amount of fiber listed for each</a><span style="font-family: georgia;">. In that list you'll see a lot of high fiber foods that you probably won't eat in large amounts (who eats 100 grams of cinnamon?), but you'll be able to look up your favorite foods and estimate the amount of fiber you're getting. </span></span></div><div style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><i>US folks:</i> Note that the table is given in "amount of fiber in 100 grams of food." So you'll have a vivid image--100 grams is around 3.5 ounces, or to make it visually memorable, small cans of cat food are 3.5 ounces (100 grams). </span></div><div style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">And you'll see that my favorite cereal has 10 grams of fiber in 100 grams of cereal. But take note--most people I know don't eat 100 grams of cereal in a serving at breakfast. My bowl of morning cereal usually has 36 grams of cereal, which means I'm getting 4 grams of fiber in each bowl. <table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="float: right; margin-left: 1em; text-align: right;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEh8RQ8K6W_C5yMEr2qWbXCLUhZ5n0WQnBhNP7SI4Z3FyN3_EbASH_hHfDrx1jqP5dz9NXsbftuOWq8EogutgvuYWQhNDt5PMtUiAT4WBcRe_F8sCiqDy9nuuEYUe_CBRWa40nSJf3FSTXyPIML90IkuJw6F5eWMqOe4gMXBpQeFdXIi_YWPuIiyfrui4Sk/s308/apple.jpg" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="244" data-original-width="308" height="159" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEh8RQ8K6W_C5yMEr2qWbXCLUhZ5n0WQnBhNP7SI4Z3FyN3_EbASH_hHfDrx1jqP5dz9NXsbftuOWq8EogutgvuYWQhNDt5PMtUiAT4WBcRe_F8sCiqDy9nuuEYUe_CBRWa40nSJf3FSTXyPIML90IkuJw6F5eWMqOe4gMXBpQeFdXIi_YWPuIiyfrui4Sk/w200-h159/apple.jpg" width="200" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">Apple with 2.8 grams of fiber</td></tr></tbody></table><br />That's okay, I guess, but an average apple has 2.8 grams of fiber, and a regular serving of plain old oatmeal has 4 grams of fiber and 6 grams of protein. (And it's about half the cost per serving.) </span></div><div style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><h3 style="background-color: white; color: #222222; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></h3><h3 style="background-color: white; color: #222222; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">SearchResearch Lessons </span></h3><div style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><b><i><span style="color: #990000;">1. Search out the things you don't understand, even sometimes fairly obvious things. </span></i></b><span style="color: #222222;"> This was just one of those little things that struck me while reading: </span><i style="color: #222222;">I couldn't actually define dietary fiber.</i><span style="color: #222222;"> I make it a practice to question what I'm reading at a very basic level. This is deeply important when you're reading something that's complicated or has an intricate back story. Do you really understand all of the parts and pieces that are involved? </span></span></div><div style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><span style="color: #222222;"><br /></span></span></div><div style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><span style="color: #222222;">Being a skilled searcher is, in large part, having enough background knowledge to know when something you just read (or heard) doesn't fit in with the other things you've read. In this case, it was a small observation about my breakfast cereal. For you, it might be something else. Follow up those small questions--they could be deeply important. </span></span></div><div style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #990000; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><b><i><br /></i></b></span></div><div style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><b><i><span style="color: #990000;">2. Look for multiple sources. </span></i></b><span style="color: #222222;"> As I did with searching for multiple sources of fiber recommendations, it's easy to find them. Be aware of differences between measurements! </span></span></div><div style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><br /></div><div style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Keep Searching! </span></div></div>Dan Russellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13603209997260423532noreply@blogger.com1tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4953008377950396317.post-9084493921994222172023-09-20T04:20:00.002-07:002023-09-20T04:21:28.382-07:00SearchResearch Challenge (9/20/23): What IS dietary fiber?<p><span style="color: #783f04; font-family: georgia; font-size: x-large;"><b><i> I realized I don't know what "fiber" really is! </i></b></span></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEj_ftNDqvlawiGDSOnD-G4dpxocRqIzelOPObXmxuNH1dr4JVGGJRcyfclhQXy2xYMiKBLB04HgtTLO_ReBJ5Wvmvh7kaPNWJCRsSF2yeIrbYM_TyqlxJX2UCogPiMlwPEVgrfZ8GevZZQ6Ct4phVuEiHSjEwpP1Ap-luMQQHEs5Ytb7hHqhxVrM76smNo/s2414/veggies.jpg" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1296" data-original-width="2414" height="344" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEj_ftNDqvlawiGDSOnD-G4dpxocRqIzelOPObXmxuNH1dr4JVGGJRcyfclhQXy2xYMiKBLB04HgtTLO_ReBJ5Wvmvh7kaPNWJCRsSF2yeIrbYM_TyqlxJX2UCogPiMlwPEVgrfZ8GevZZQ6Ct4phVuEiHSjEwpP1Ap-luMQQHEs5Ytb7hHqhxVrM76smNo/w640-h344/veggies.jpg" width="640" /></span></a></div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div>I was at a farmer's market buying a few veggies for the week ahead, and while standing in line I was browsing my news feed, and came across an article about the amount of dietary fiber in different foods. I was impressed to read that my favorite breakfast cereal, a "high fiber" food, delivered a "whopping" 3.57 grams of fiber in each serving. </span><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Years of SRS have taught me to be very wary of anything I read, especially when it's surrounded by such superlative adjectives. </span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">So I found myself wondering my SearchResearch type of questions: "Is that a lot of fiber?" And "so how much fiber should I be getting?" </span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">When I got home I did a little searching around and found that... <i>I really don't understand what fiber is!</i> </span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">In particular, I thought that <i>fiber</i> was the indigestible part of your food--you know, the little threads, husks, hulls, and tiny fragments that just pass straight through without much digestion seeming to take place. </span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">But when I let my cereal sit for too long in the milk, I know it turns into a pure paste. There's nothing like the kernels of corn or bits of apple skin that (as far as I can tell) are untouched by my digestive juices. How could there be any "fiber" in that glop? </span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Later, I saw a bottled drink for sale in my grocery store that promised a solid 6 grams of fiber in a single drink. So far as I could tell, the drink looked pretty much like some kind of exotic juice--not the pulpy slurry I would have expected. </span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Can you help me understand what's going on here? Today's Challenges are: </span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><b>1. So what, really, is dietary fiber? Is it something more than indigestible bits like wheat bran, corn kernels, and rice husks? </b></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><b><br /></b></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><b><br /></b></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><b>2. What is the current recommendation for dietary fiber in my diet? Is 5 grams of fiber in a serving a lot? Or is it a little? </b></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><b><br /></b></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000; font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><b><br /></b></span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">These don't look like difficult questions--BUT--when I did my research, I found the story much more interesting and complicated than I'd originally thought. </span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Among other things, I've started looking at the listed amount of fiber in a food product with a huge grain of salt. (Which will then upset my sodium intake, but so be it.) </span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">What IS the story with fiber? It seems there's more here than meets the eye, the tooth, and the entire <a href="https://training.seer.cancer.gov/anatomy/digestive/regions/#:~:text=The%20alimentary%20tract%20of%20the,liver%2C%20gallbladder%2C%20and%20pancreas." target="_blank">alimentary canal</a>. </span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Can you find out? </span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Let us know what you discovered, and what you did to find out about it. </span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;">Keep Searching! </span></div><div><span style="font-family: georgia; font-size: medium;"><br /></span><p><br /></p></div>Dan Russellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13603209997260423532noreply@blogger.com18