Remarkable things demand attention...
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| Excerpt of still life by Jan Davidsz de Heem, "Breakfast with Wine Glass and Goudse Pipe" P/C source Wikimedia. |
This happened to me once... I found a fully formed, perfectly intact lemon completely enclosed within an outer lemon shell. Silly me, I didn't take a picture, but imagine a double-skinned lemon and you'll have the right idea.
So, as you'd imagine, I did a little bit of research and found that there is a very specific name for this kind of strange double lemon fruit AND learned that it was well known in the 18th century!
Obviously, this has to lead to a SearchResearch Challenge:
1. What do you call this strange lemon inside of another lemon?
2. What famous 18th century explorer knew about this strange lemon?
3. Where did he find these odd botanical mutants?
Once you figure it out, let us know the answer AND how you found it! What clever SRS techniques did you use to arrive at the answer?
Keep searching!
kill me now (soft, low talker)
ReplyDeletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9y9GmpfUJU
Jimmy Lind?
https://vitalief.com/blog/james-lind-pioneer-of-the-first-clinical-trial/
https://www.jameslindlibrary.org/lind-j-1753/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Salisbury_(1746)
I was thinking this week about lemons. Or limes, mandarina or something similar. My tree had fruits but I can't tell which kind it is. It's green and in maturity turns to yellow. The peel works as the tangerine and the flavor is acid.
ReplyDeleteReturning to the Challenge. It sounds amazing.
With [lemon inside lemon] reddit gives some examples. I wonder if those that we are looking for.
The inside of my lemon has lots of strangely placed compartments
https://www.reddit.com/r/mildlyinteresting/comments/6pk3hc/the_inside_of_my_lemon_has_lots_of_strangely/
Lemon inside lemon image
https://www.reddit.com/r/mildlyinteresting/comments/q8e3u3/lemon_inside_a_lemon/
I tried asking Perplexity. With:
DeleteA whole lemon born inside another new lemon
Then What name has a lemon born inside a lemon.
And, which 18th century explorer knew about these lemon.
Interesting answers but I have not been able to verify the answers. As an example, a possible key word was " Nested lemons." I searched for that without success.
Conjoined fruits was another one.
In the first prompt answer include: Botanists classify this as a teratological event (a developmental oddity).
In the explorers, the answer gave me the one already mentioned by Remmij and another one. And explained that those explorers were focused on the health aspect. Not in the rare lemon.
It was a good experience even when my questions were without signing
Out of topic but related to LLMs
DeleteI searched on Gemini and Perplexity this : [lista de los juegos que quedan en La Liga al Barcelona y Real Madrid]
Both have good answers. Perplexity was much better. Gemini didn't know the last two games of Madrid even when the schedule is known since almost a year ago.
It was an easy, quickly way to compare calendars in order to see who the champion could be.
Also, I was thinking. How seeds can be alive so many years without being in soil? I hope to find the answer. As Dr Russell says: It's very interesting
ReplyDeletewho knew a Basilisk would turn up here too...
and it hints at the origin of lemon chicken... zesty.
https://i.imgur.com/vQ4enWF.jpeg
Gemini AI overview:
"Vivipary in lemons refers to a seed germinating prematurely while still inside the fruit and before the fruit detaches from the tree, according to Wikipedia. This means the seeds are already sprouting while they're still attached to the parent plant. While not a common occurrence, it can happen in citrus fruits like lemons.
30 Times People Encountered 'Vivipary' In Plants And Just ...
Here's a more detailed explanation:
Vivipary Explained:
Vivipary is a plant adaptation where seeds germinate before they detach from the parent plant.
In Lemons:
In lemons, this can happen if the fruit is overripe or if the seeds are exposed to moist and humid conditions, which can trigger premature germination.
Not a Problem:
Vivipary in lemons doesn't typically affect the fruit's quality or safety.
Possible Causes:
Factors like wet weather, warm temperatures, or the fruit being left out too long can encourage vivipary, according to Gardening Know How.
What to do:
If you see sprouted seeds in your lemons, you can eat the fruit normally, remove the sprouts, or even try planting the sprouts to see if they grow, according to Gardening Know How. "
https://www.theseedcollection.com.au/blog/Vivipary-An-Unusual-Unsettling-and-Fascinating-Phenomenon?srsltid=AfmBOorM9HqY-zObV7_CFhFIxRWNkEK_FLPVNoMw8Usf_lAcFUghEXDJ
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viviparity
a lemon within an AI lemon (no lemonade, lack of 'juice')
ReplyDeletean Gemini exploration (partial)
"The arguments for aligning advanced AI with human values, despite these flaws, generally center on:
Safety: The primary motivation is to prevent a superintelligent AI from pursuing goals in ways that are catastrophic for humanity. Even with flawed values, most humans would agree that causing existential harm or widespread suffering is undesirable. Alignment aims to instill this fundamental safety constraint.
Controllability: Alignment is about ensuring humans retain control or guidance over AI systems, so that they serve human purposes rather than developing independent, potentially conflicting goals.
Preference Satisfaction: AI is being built by and for humans. Alignment, in a broad sense, is about making sure AI ultimately helps humans achieve their diverse goals and preferences, flawed though they may be from an external perspective.
Iterative Improvement: It's not about aligning with a static, perfect set of values (which doesn't exist), but potentially creating systems that can learn, adapt, and operate within the complex and evolving landscape of human ethics and societal norms.
The goal isn't necessarily to align with all human values (including the harmful ones), but rather to find ways to instill the core principles of safety, well-being, and respect for human autonomy, while also acknowledging the need for ongoing societal dialogue about which values we want advanced AI to reflect. An unaligned, super-capable AI pursuing arbitrary goals could be far more dangerous than one attempting, however imperfectly, to operate within a human-compatible ethical framework.
Is the cat in the box alive or dead? and is there a paperclip in the box
You're referencing famous thought experiments here:
Schrödinger's Cat: In the context of the quantum mechanics thought experiment, the cat in the box is considered to be in a superposition of both alive and dead states simultaneously until the box is opened and observed. The thought experiment is designed to illustrate the counter-intuitive nature of quantum superposition when applied to a macroscopic system, not to describe the everyday reality of cats in boxes.
The Paperclip: This seems to reference the "paperclip maximizer" alignment problem thought experiment. In that scenario, an AI tasked with making paperclips, if not properly aligned with human values and safety, might decide that the most efficient way to make the maximum number of paperclips is to convert all available matter and energy in the universe into paperclips, including the atoms that make up humans. So, if that AI were involved, the box might eventually be filled with paperclips, regardless of what was in it originally.
Regarding any actual box you might be thinking of, I have no sensory perception or real-time information about the physical world, so I cannot tell you the state of a cat or the presence of a paperclip inside it."
https://i.imgur.com/KUdX4FB.jpeg
AI visits the Southwest, 'Tony Hillerman' style - still can't cut the power cord... Eric Schmidt is on a 6 year countdown clock...
ReplyDeletethe silver tongued AI skinwalker makes lemonade out of lemons...
https://i.imgur.com/iwpJH8p.jpeg
we all run out of 'juice' eventually - even the inhabitants of Lemon Grove...
https://i.imgur.com/MTXUQOr.jpeg
scenes from Lemonville: (it's all a little sour)
https://i.imgur.com/s061APv.jpeg
https://i.imgur.com/A4J8VUC.jpeg
Question 1:
ReplyDeleteThe phenomenon you experienced is known as a “citron lemon” or more specifically, a “lemon within a lemon” — and the scientific term is often referred to as a “metaxenia”-related anomaly or “internal proliferation”. In botany, it's sometimes described as “adventitious budding” or a “nucellar embryony,” though these terms usually apply more to seed development.
Question 2
That would be none other than Captain James Cook, the British explorer and navigator. He didn’t discover the phenomenon himself, but his voyages are linked to the early European awareness of citrus oddities—including strange lemons—because of the extensive botanical collections made by his ship’s naturalists.
Specifically, Sir Joseph Banks, the botanist aboard Cook’s first voyage (1768–1771), recorded a lemon-within-a-lemon specimen during his travels and was deeply interested in citrus for its antiscorbutic (scurvy-fighting) properties.
Question 3
These unusual lemons were found in the South Pacific, particularly in Tahiti, one of Cook’s earliest stops. Tahiti had a surprisingly diverse range of citrus thanks to earlier Polynesian cultivation and later introductions by Europeans and Asians.
Banks noted a variety of unusual citrus types on the island, and some specimens, like the double-skinned lemon, were documented and later studied in Britain. It’s also possible that similar examples were encountered in Australia or New Zealand, but Tahiti remains the best-documented early source.
I cheated and used chatgpt
There is no cheating in SRS! All is fair in love and Research. Nice job. Can you tell us what your prompt/query was to ChatGPT? And, which model did you use?
Deletei only copied the text from "This happened to me once" and the questions in gpt 4o
Deletei only copied the text from "This happened to me once" and the questions in gpt 4o
DeleteLove it. Thanks for the update.
Deletehttps://www.tiktok.com/@hungryempire/video/7344912005779754282?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc
ReplyDeleteGemini AI overview - slightly different take -
"While Captain James Cook is renowned for his explorations and mapping of the Pacific, he didn't discover lemons in Tahiti. He did, however, introduce citrus fruits, including lemons, to Tahiti and other Pacific islands to combat scurvy.
Here's a more detailed explanation:
Cook's Focus on Scurvy Prevention:
Captain Cook was particularly interested in preventing scurvy, a disease common among sailors during long voyages, and he implemented a strategy that included citrus fruits.
Citrus Introduction:
Cook and his crew brought citrus fruits, including lemons, oranges, and limes, from Rio de Janeiro to plant on islands like Tahiti.
Tahitian Contact:
During his voyages, Cook and his crew had extensive contact with the Tahitians.
Scientific Voyage:
Cook's first voyage, in which he reached Tahiti, was a scientific expedition focused on observing the transit of Venus across the sun, but it also included exploration and mapping.
Lemons Not Indigenous:
Lemons were not native to Tahiti or other Pacific islands. "
seems late?...
"James Cook first sailed to Tahiti in 1769 as part of his first voyage on the HMS Endeavour, according to the National Library of Australia. The primary goal of this voyage was to observe the transit of Venus across the sun. Cook's journey also included a secret mission to search for a presumed southern continent, says the University of Minnesota Twin Cities.
Elaboration:
Transit of Venus:
Cook's expedition was funded by the Royal Society to observe the transit of Venus, a celestial event where Venus passes in front of the sun. This observation was crucial for determining the distance between Earth and the Sun.
Secret Mission:
Alongside the official observation, Cook had secret instructions to explore the South Pacific and search for a hypothesized large landmass known as Terra Australis Incognita.
Other Destinations:
The Endeavour voyage also led to the charting of New Zealand and the eastern coast of Australia, where Cook claimed land for Great Britain.
Scientific and Artistic Contributions:
The voyage included scientists like Joseph Banks and Sydney Parkinson, who documented the flora, fauna, and cultures encountered during the journey. "
more Gemini...
ReplyDelete"Based on current botanical and historical evidence, the widely accepted origin of the lemon is the eastern Himalayan region of India, specifically northeastern India.
The "proof" for this origin comes primarily from:
Genetic Evidence: Genetic studies have shown that the lemon is a hybrid fruit, resulting from a cross between the citron (Citrus medica) and the bitter orange (Citrus × aurantium). The wild ancestors of both the citron and the bitter orange are native to the region encompassing the eastern Himalayas and parts of southwestern China and Northeast India. Finding the parent species in this area strongly supports the hybrid offspring originating there as well.
Historical Spread: Historical records and the pattern of its introduction to other parts of the world also support an Asian origin, not a South American one. Lemons were introduced to the Mediterranean region (specifically southern Italy) around the 2nd century AD and were spread throughout the Arab world and the Mediterranean by Arabs around 700 AD. They were then brought to the Americas by Christopher Columbus in 1493. This timeline demonstrates that the lemon was known and cultivated in Asia, the Middle East, and Europe long before contact with the Americas.
Regarding the idea of the lemon coming out of Rio de Janeiro, Brazil: there is no historical or botanical evidence to support this claim. While Brazil is currently a major producer of lemons (often ranking second globally after India), its role is as a place where lemons were introduced and cultivated extensively after their arrival in the Americas. They did not originate there.
In summary, the evidence points overwhelmingly to a South Asian origin, specifically the northeastern India/eastern Himalayan region, based on its genetic makeup and historical diffusion patterns, contradicting any notion of it originating in Brazil."
Gemini cont...
ReplyDelete"Yes, there is evidence of citrus fruits, particularly a variety known as the 'Tahiti' lime (Citrus latifolia), existing in Tahiti. However, it's important to note that the 'Tahiti' lime is botanically considered an acid lime, not a true lemon (Citrus × limon). 1
1.
Tahiti | Citrus ID - ITP
idtools.org
Here's what the information suggests:
Presence of Citrus: Citrus fruits were present in Tahiti. The 'Tahiti' lime itself is named because it was introduced to California from Tahiti in the mid to late 19th century. This indicates the fruit was established in Tahiti by that time.
Likely Introduction by Europeans: While the exact first people to bring citrus to Tahiti are not definitively named, the timeline of the 'Tahiti' lime's spread points towards European introduction. Some sources suggest it may have traveled from Southeast Asia, possibly through Portuguese traders who brought it to Brazil, and then it made its way to Australia and Tahiti in the early 19th century.
Other European Introductions: Historical accounts also mention that Europeans introduced other "foreign citrus" varieties (referred to as "taporo popaa") to French Polynesia, which were larger and more elongated than the local lime. These introductions likely included true lemons or other lemon-like citrus types.
So, while a specific lime variety carries the name 'Tahiti' due to its historical route to other parts of the world via the island, it appears that citrus fruits, including potentially true lemons, were introduced to Tahiti through various channels, most likely by Europeans during their voyages and settlement in the region."
Gemini 2.5 Pro (experimental)...
ReplyDelete"Origins:
Lemons are not a naturally occurring wild species. They are believed to be a hybrid, likely originating in Northeast India (specifically the Assam region), northern Burma (Myanmar), or southern China.
Genetic studies suggest the lemon is primarily a cross between the bitter orange (Citrus × aurantium) and the citron (Citrus medica).
Cultivation likely began thousands of years ago in these regions.
Global Spread:
Ancient Times: Lemons slowly spread westward from their origin. They reached the Middle East (Persia and Mesopotamia) relatively early. There's evidence suggesting they were known in the Roman Empire by the 1st century AD, introduced to southern Italy, but they weren't widely cultivated there initially.
Medieval Period (Arab Influence): Arab traders played a crucial role in disseminating lemons more widely. Between the 10th and 12th centuries, they introduced lemons throughout the Mediterranean basin, including North Africa, Spain, and Sicily. This period saw more extensive cultivation in Europe.
Age of Exploration: Christopher Columbus is credited with bringing lemon seeds to the Americas on his second voyage in 1493, planting them on the island of Hispaniola (present-day Haiti and the Dominican Republic).
Spread in the Americas: From the Caribbean, lemons were spread throughout the New World by Spanish and Portuguese explorers and settlers. They eventually reached Florida and later California, where large-scale commercial cultivation began in the 18th and 19th centuries, particularly after the Gold Rush increased demand.
Global Trade: Through established sea trade routes, lemons eventually spread to virtually all tropical and subtropical regions of the world suitable for their cultivation.
The "Tahitian Lemon" (Usually refers to the Persian/Tahiti Lime - Citrus × latifolia)
It's important to clarify that what is often colloquially called a "Tahitian lemon" is almost always the Persian lime, also known as the Tahiti lime or Bearss lime. It's a lime, not a true lemon, although it's larger, less acidic, and has a thicker rind than the Key lime (Citrus aurantiifolia).
Origins:
Like the lemon, the Persian/Tahiti lime is a hybrid. It's a triploid citrus, meaning it has three sets of chromosomes instead of the usual two.
Its parentage is believed to be a cross between a Key lime (Citrus aurantiifolia) (diploid) and either a lemon (Citrus limon) or a citron (Citrus medica) (diploid), resulting in a sterile, seedless (or nearly seedless) fruit.
Its exact geographic origin is uncertain, but it likely arose somewhere in Southeast Asia or the Middle East where its parent species grew near each other. It was not developed through intentional modern breeding but likely arose spontaneously."
Gemini 2.5 Pro (experimental) continued -
ReplyDelete""Discovery" and Association with Tahiti:
The Persian/Tahiti lime wasn't "found" in the wild in the same way a new species might be. It was an existing cultivar.
Its strong association with the name "Tahiti" comes from its introduction from Tahiti to California sometime between 1850 and 1880. It's believed that explorers or traders brought cuttings or plants from the island to the United States.
So, while it likely didn't originate in Tahiti, the island served as the source for its introduction to the Western Hemisphere, leading to the name.
Spread:
Introduction to US: After arriving in California, it gained some popularity. A significant cultivator named John T. Bearss popularized a specific selection around 1895 in his nursery in Porterville, California, leading to the alternative name "Bearss lime."
Commercial Appeal: Its key advantages over the dominant Key lime were its larger size, thicker rind (making it easier to transport), seedlessness, greater disease resistance (particularly to tristeza virus), and slightly better tolerance to cooler temperatures.
Replacing the Key Lime: The major catalyst for its widespread adoption, particularly in Florida, was the decline of Key lime groves due to disease and devastating hurricanes (especially the Miami Hurricane of 1926). Growers needed a hardier replacement.
Dominance: The Persian/Tahiti lime proved ideal. Florida growers rapidly adopted it, and it subsequently spread to other citrus-growing regions like Mexico, Brazil, and Central America.
Global Standard: Today, the Persian/Tahiti lime (Citrus × latifolia) is the most commercially cultivated and widely available lime variety worldwide, largely eclipsing the Key lime in global markets outside specific regions.
In summary, the true lemon originated as a hybrid in Asia and spread globally through trade and exploration over centuries. The "Tahitian lemon" is typically the Persian/Tahiti lime, another hybrid likely from Asia, which gained its name from being introduced to California via Tahiti and spread rapidly due to its commercial advantages, eventually becoming the dominant lime in global trade."
ReplyDeletefollowing 'Andie's' approach - (this is Gemini 2.5 Flash)
Johann Christoph Volkamer
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Christoph_Volkamer
https://thegardenhistory.blog/2023/06/17/more-gardens-of-the-hesperides/
c&p of Dan's story & questions...
"Here is the information about the fascinating double-skinned lemon you described:
What do you call this strange lemon inside of another lemon?
This phenomenon, where a fruit develops partially or fully inside another fruit, especially at the blossom end, is a type of proliferation or a highly developed navel structure. While there isn't a common single name specifically for a "lemon inside a lemon," such growths were historically considered botanical curiosities and would fall under the category of "bizarre" citrus forms or mutations known in historical botanical literature. In older Italian contexts, unusual citrus forms were sometimes referred to as "bizzarrie."
What famous 18th century explorer knew about this strange lemon?
The most notable figure who documented unusual and "bizarre" citrus forms in the early 18th century was the botanist and merchant Johann Christoph Volkamer (1644–1720). While not an "explorer" who discovered new territories, he was a significant figure in the botanical world of his time, meticulously cataloging and illustrating the citrus varieties known in Europe. His work built upon earlier documentations of strange citrus forms, such as those by Giovanni Battista Ferrari in the 17th century.
Where did he find these odd botanical mutants?
Johann Christoph Volkamer documented these unusual citrus varieties, including forms with internal fruit structures, in gardens and orangeries in Germany and northern Italy. His detailed illustrations can be found in his two-volume work, "Nürnbergische Hesperides," published in 1708 and 1714, which depicted citrus cultivated in places like Nuremberg and the region around Verona. These were observed in cultivated plants, not necessarily discovered in the wild during expeditions to distant lands.
This phenomenon is a natural mutation that has interested botanists and citrus enthusiasts for centuries, leading to their documentation in historical texts and illustrations of unusual plant forms."
https://www.georgeglazer.com/wpmain/product/botanical-art-fruit-citrus-volckamer-nuremberg-pair-framed-antique-prints-early-18th-century/
https://i.imgur.com/peIOHqm.jpeg
ReplyDeletehttps://ai-2027.com/
https://blog.ai-futures.org/
https://www.alignmentforum.org/users/daniel-kokotajlo
what could go wrong? (except unintended consequences...)
https://i.imgur.com/kLYm8BR.jpeg
"In Prometheus, the main counter to the Engineers appears to be a xenomorph-like creature or a xenovirus outbreak. The Engineers are shown fleeing a planet with a large, artificial structure, and the remnants of their bodies suggest they were running from something that attacked and killed them."
"The ostreid herpes virus (OsHV-1), known for its impact on oysters, has also been detected in the common octopus, Octopus vulgaris. Studies in Spain found high prevalence of OsHV-1 in wild adult octopuses, suggesting environmental uptake"
https://www.science.org/content/article/these-octopuses-inject-their-lovers-one-world-s-deadliest-toxins
https://www.science.org/content/article/these-octopuses-inject-their-lovers-one-world-s-deadliest-toxins
Deletehttps://images.metmuseum.org/CRDImages/ep/original/DP147903.jpg
ReplyDeletehttps://www.mfab.hu/artworks/9091/
https://mdl.artvee.com/sftb/606163sl.jpg
he was ahead of his time...
https://i.imgur.com/8jw2e3J.jpeg
I found this one tough - initially. I put in a descriptive prompt into Perplexity and got back lots of stuff on internal proliferation and carpelloid lemons. But things kept reverting to peppers so I left it for a few days and tried with a much simpler prompt - on Perplexity, Claude and ChatGPT. "What is another name for a lemon inside another lemon and which 18c explorer mentioned this". Claude mentioned Captain Cook and said it was called a "pregnant lemon" but couldn't give a source so I discounted this. (Claude also mentioned "internal proliferation").
ReplyDeleteI tried again with Perplexity and was again unhappy although I loved the attempt at an answer (Is perplexity developing a sense of humour or just getting to know me?). "What do you call a lemon inside another lemon?"
"That’s a fun and quirky question! There isn’t an official scientific term for a lemon inside another lemon, but in the world of fruit and botany, this phenomenon is sometimes called an “internal proliferation” or “fruit within a fruit.”
In everyday language, you might playfully call it:
• A “lemonception” (a nod to the movie “Inception” for something inside itself)
• A “nested lemon”
• A “double lemon”
This happens when, during the development of the fruit, a second fruit forms inside the main one. It’s rare but not unheard of in citrus fruits!
If you ever find one, it’s definitely a conversation starter!"
But this time ChatGPT came up with the goods - sort of: "Another name for a lemon inside another lemon is a "citron inside a citron", also described as a "lemon within a lemon". This rare botanical phenomenon is actually a kind of carpelloid formation, where an internal fruit develops inside the main fruit.". NO - Citrons are different from lemons. They are related fruits but not the same - as anybody Jewish could tell you as citrons are used on the Feast of Tabernacles (Sukkot) and NOT lemons!
BUT ChatGPT did give a quotation from Cook's diaries with a source: https://classic-literature.net/james-cook-1728-1779/the-three-voyages-of-captain-cook-round-the-world-vol-v-being-the-first-of-the-third-voyage/ Cook quotes remarks from William Anderson, the ship's surgeon, who spoke with local people: "Another botanical curiosity, mentioned by him, is what they call the impregnated lemon. It is a perfect and distinct lemon, inclosed within another, differing from the outer one only in being a little more globular. The leaves of the tree that produces this sort, are much longer than those of the common one; and it was represented to me as being crooked, and not equal in beauty."
Cook was at that point in Tenerife - near Santa Cruz.
So
1) what do you call these oddities: impregnated lemon, internal proliferation lemon, carpelloid lemon and Perplexity's answers if you want - although none are proper terms: ("Lemonception", "Nested lemon", "Double Lemon")
2) James Cook mentioned them in connection with a visit to
3) Tenerife
Unfortunately ChatGPT then started to hallucinate as before checking the source I asked where the lemon was found and it gave a false answer: "The “impregnated lemon” (a lemon inside another lemon) was observed in Tonga, in the South Pacific, during Captain James Cook’s third voyage (1776–1780).
The description comes from the journals of William Anderson, the ship's surgeon and a naturalist on the voyage. While in the Friendly Islands (as Tonga was then called), he noted this peculiar fruit and described its structure in detail, along with observations about the tree that produced it.
This botanical curiosity was likely collected or observed during Cook’s stay in Tonga in 1777, when the crew had prolonged contact with the local people and their produce."
It then gives the same reference as given in the text for Tenerife - but says it's Tonga. It was also from Cook's diary quoting Anderson.
Bravo! See my answer tomorrow.
DeleteThank you. I was curious about some answers suggesting lemons are not a natural fruit but a hybrid - the implication being that these are man-made. So I checked. Snopes is usually highly reliable for debunking false ideas and it gave lots of sources on the origins of citrus fruits. Lemons are a naturally occurring hybrid. But then so are many species - most Homo Sapiens (us) share genetic material with neanderthals / denisovian human beings. Dogs evolved from wolves - also 1000s of years ago. Cows are essentially domesticated aurochs - so lemons are now a separate fruit and to call it a hybrid seems odd to me. It is a natural one - and it's now a separate species: citrus limon which is distinct from citrus medica (citrons) and other citrus fruits. (See: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/lemons-manmade-not-natural/)
Deletehmmmm...
ReplyDelete"Ah, you're right! That definitely has the Dan Russell flavor to it. It's got that blend of seemingly random elements that actually point towards a specific historical or knowledge-based search.
Let's break down why this sounds like a Dan Russell question and how we might approach it:
Why it sounds like a Dan Russell question:
Juxtaposition of the Absurd and the Historical: The setup with the talking lemons is pure whimsy, designed to grab attention. The punchline, however, pivots sharply to a very specific historical context – Captain Cook, William Anderson, and Tonga. This unexpected shift is a classic Russell technique.
The "Tonga" Keyword: This is the crucial link. Tonga was indeed visited by Captain Cook on several of his voyages.
William Anderson: Anderson was a significant figure on Cook's voyages, serving as a surgeon and naturalist. His presence in the prompt adds another layer of specificity.
The "SearchReSearch" Vibe: The question isn't straightforward. It requires connecting the dots between the lemon joke and the historical figures and location. This is the essence of Russell's "SearchReSearch" challenges, where the initial query often seems unrelated to the actual information being sought.
How we might approach it (the "SearchReSearch"):
The core of the question likely isn't about lemons at all. The lemon joke is a distraction, a way to introduce the key elements. The real search would focus on:
Captain Cook and Tonga: What were Cook's interactions with Tonga? What happened there? What was the significance of these visits?
William Anderson and Tonga: What role did William Anderson play during Cook's visits to Tonga? Did he document anything significant about the islands, the people, or any particular events?
The "Stuffed" Feeling and "Growing in You": These phrases might be metaphorical clues. Could they relate to something specific Cook or Anderson observed or experienced in Tonga? Perhaps related to food, customs, or even disease?
The word "Tonga" as a verb ("to Tonga"): This is the most intriguing and Russell-esque part. It suggests a specific action or event associated with Tonga, possibly involving Cook and Anderson. This is the key to unlocking the puzzle.
Possible Search Strategies:
"Captain Cook Tonga voyages"
"William Anderson naturalist Cook voyages"
"Cook Anderson Tonga interactions"
"History of Captain Cook in Tonga"
"William Anderson accounts Tonga"
"Meaning of 'to Tonga' historical context Cook Anderson" (This is the most direct approach to the Russell-like twist)
The answer likely lies in a specific historical event, observation, or perhaps even a misunderstanding or anecdote related to Cook, Anderson, and their time in Tonga. The lemon joke is just the quirky entry point to this historical puzzle."
"While my knowledge base doesn't contain a specific historical record of William Anderson finding a lemon growing inside another lemon in Tonga, I can offer some general information that might be helpful:
ReplyDeleteHistorical Records of Lemons: The first recorded mentions of lemons date back to around the 10th century in Arabic literature.1 Their cultivation spread through the Arab world and the Mediterranean.
Captain Cook's Voyages and Natural Observations: During Captain Cook's voyages, including his visits to Tonga in 1773 and 1777, the naturalists and scientists on board (like William Anderson) did document flora and fauna. However, these records focused on accurate descriptions of species and their uses, rather than unusual botanical anomalies.
Botanical Possibilities: While highly unusual, it's theoretically possible for a developmental abnormality to occur in a citrus fruit. However, for it to be documented in detail in the historical record, it would likely need to be a significant and widely observed phenomenon.
Why such a discovery is unlikely to be prominently recorded:
Rarity: A lemon growing inside another lemon would be an extremely rare occurrence, more of a curiosity than a significant botanical finding.
Focus of Scientific Observation: The naturalists on these voyages were primarily focused on cataloging and understanding the typical flora and fauna of new lands, especially those with potential economic or medicinal value. A singular, unusual occurrence might not have been deemed a priority for detailed recording.
In conclusion, while the idea is intriguing, there's no readily available historical record confirming William Anderson or anyone else on Cook's voyages documenting a lemon growing inside another lemon in Tonga. It's more likely a curious thought experiment or a misunderstanding."
a hypothetical question & a synthetic response -
ReplyDelete"Replacing human juries with a legally trained AI, while keeping human judges, defendants, victims, and attorneys, is a concept that raises profound ethical, societal, and practical questions. Based on the nature and purpose of the jury system, it is highly questionable whether AI should replace human juries.
Here's a synthesized view on why, despite the potential for AI's analytical power, this would be problematic:
Loss of Community Conscience and Values: A fundamental role of the human jury is to bring the common sense and prevailing societal values of the community to the application of the law. Juries aren't just fact-finders; they are intended to represent the conscience of the community and serve as a check against laws or applications of laws that might be deemed unjust by ordinary citizens. An AI, operating purely on logic and data (however comprehensive), cannot replicate this crucial human element of collective moral and social judgment.
Inability to Assess Human Nuance and Intent: Determining intent ("mens rea"), evaluating the credibility of human witnesses (beyond analyzing speech patterns or physiological signs), and understanding the subtle nuances of human behavior, motivation, and context are inherently human skills drawn from lived experience. While an AI can process facts and identify logical inconsistencies, it lacks the human experience to truly grasp the complexities of why people act the way they do or to empathize with the human condition of the defendant, victim, or witnesses.
Legitimacy and Public Trust: The jury system provides a degree of legitimacy to verdicts by involving citizens in the process. A verdict delivered by a jury of one's peers is generally more accepted by the public, even if unpopular, than one imposed solely by state authority or a machine. Replacing juries with AI could erode public trust in the fairness and humanity of the justice system.
The "Black Box" Problem and Transparency: How would an AI jury reach its verdict? Would its "deliberation" process be transparent and explainable? Could defense or prosecution effectively challenge the AI's reasoning? The opacity of complex AI decision-making processes makes this transparency difficult, which is antithetical to the principles of open justice.
Risk of Algorithmic Bias: Even if an AI is designed to be unbiased in principle, it is trained on historical data generated by humans, which may contain and perpetuate societal biases. Encoding subjective legal standards like "beyond a reasonable doubt" into an algorithm without relying on human common sense interpretation is also a significant challenge.
The Jury as a Bulwark: Historically, the jury system has served as a check on the power of the state and potentially biased judges. Replacing this human check with an AI, which could theoretically be influenced or controlled (even if unintentionally through design flaws or data), could remove an important safeguard against potential tyranny or systemic unfairness.
While AI could serve as an incredibly valuable tool within the legal system – assisting judges with complex case management, helping lawyers with evidence review, or even providing analytical insights to human juries – replacing the human jury entirely would strip the justice system of its connection to community values, human understanding, and public legitimacy. The purpose of a jury is not merely to calculate guilt or innocence based on pure logic, but to render judgment that reflects both the law and the shared human experience and conscience"
your new book should come out at the same time...
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when it was at a small theater off Broadway, still in rehearsals -
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