There are lots of concepts...
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| P/C Midjourney |
... in the world that I notice, but can't quite articulate.
For instance, a while ago we searched for the concept of "wall paintings on the outside of buildings in Switzerland" and learned the term Lüftlmalerei. (See the SRS post from Dec 9, 2023 for details.)
This Challenge is similar in that I'm not sure what to search for these things I've noticed, but don't know what terms to use to search for them. Here's my problem...
You know how Taylor Swift has ardent fans? They're called Swifties. Likewise, the Grateful Dead has Deadheads, Phish has Phishheads, and the Insane Clown Posse has Juggalos.
But I was reading the other day (and that always leads to odd observations and questions) about the ardent followers of Claude Debussy who call themselves Debussyists. That was a new word to me. I already knew there were huge fans of Richard Wagner who are called Wagnerians (etc etc).
I was then seized by an interest in learning what other composers / musicians have fans that name themselves after their musical leader. It's easy to find modern musical groups that have legions of fans (Beetlemaniacs, etc.), but what about earlier composers and musicians?
In the process of looking that up, I also learned that there are clubs and organizations that seem to have sprung up in their wake. How do I find them? The deep question here is how to go from an observed pattern or concept (e.g., legions of fans who follow a particular musician) to some practical way to search for that notion. What's that process? How to move from vague understanding to some language I can actually use for search purposes?
So, here are the Challenges for this week:
1. Can you find the terms / names for ardent fans of particular composers from the classical era? (I mean this expansively, anything from 1700 to 1920.) "Debussyist" is one example, "Wagnerian" is another--can you find others? In particular, what kind of search term(s) do you use to find such fan labels?
2. Can you find clubs that were formed to celebrate and fête musicians from that time period? (I found some clubs that astonished me. Perhaps you will too.)
As always, be sure to tell us HOW you found the answers to these little Challenges. (Perhaps you'll have an easier time of it, but it took me a while to get the answers to these.)
Let us know how you did.
Keep searching!
I was lazy - so asked Bing Copilot for answers. My question:
ReplyDeleteTaylor Swift has ardent fans called Swifties. Likewise, the Grateful Dead has Deadheads, Phish has Phishheads, and the Insane Clown Posse has Juggalos. In the Classical music world, ardent followers of Claude Debussy call themselves Debussyists and fans of Richard Wagner who are called Wagnerians
Are there terms or names for ardent fans of other composers from the period 1700 to 1920?
While specific fan group names like “Swifties” or “Wagnerians” are not commonly associated with many classical composers, enthusiasts of certain composers often form societies or groups dedicated to their music. For example, admirers of Johann Sebastian Bach, who composed from 1700 to 1750, might not have a widely recognized nickname, but there are numerous Bach societies worldwide that celebrate his work. Similarly, fans of Ludwig van Beethoven, Franz Schubert, or Frédéric Chopin, although not typically known by unique monikers, often gather in appreciation societies or festivals dedicated to their music.
The tradition of naming fan groups is more prevalent in contemporary genres, but classical music lovers often show their admiration through concert attendance, scholarly study, and participation in appreciation societies. If there are specific terms for fans of other composers from the 1700 to 1920 period, they might not be as widely recognized or used as those for more modern artists.
So I asked about the clubs and appreciation societies as in the 2nd part. Copilot suggested Back, Beethoven, Mozart, and Schubert societies. I then went back to the first question:
Getting back to the idea of terms like Wagnerian, Debussyists - what are followers of Schubert, Bach, Beethoven, Chopin, and Mozart called? What about other composers - Mahler, Delius, Holst, etc.
The answer was more interesting:
While there are no universally recognized terms for fans of Schubert, Bach, Beethoven, Chopin, and Mozart akin to “Wagnerians” or “Debussyists,” enthusiasts of these composers often identify simply as admirers or scholars of their music. The same applies to followers of other composers like Mahler, Delius, and Holst. They may be referred to as Mahlerians, Delians, or Holstians in some circles, but these terms are not as commonly used or widely recognized as those for more contemporary artists’ fan bases.
In the classical music community, the appreciation is typically expressed through membership in societies or attendance at festivals dedicated to these composers, rather than through specific fan group names. However, if you’re looking for a way to describe such fans informally, you might consider using terms like “Bach aficionados,” “Beethoven buffs,” or “Chopin enthusiasts,” which convey a deep appreciation and enthusiasm for these composers’ works.
I then asked the same question to ChatGPT (slightly modified):
ReplyDeleteTaylor Swift has ardent fans called Swifties. Likewise, the Grateful Dead has Deadheads, Phish has Phishheads, and the Insane Clown Posse has Juggalos. In the Classical music world, ardent followers of Claude Debussy call themselves Debussyists and fans of Richard Wagner who are called Wagnerians
Are there terms or names for ardent fans of other composers from the period 1700 to 1920. Perhaps Lisztian for Liszt? Holstian for Holst? Are these terms? What about other composers - Mozart, Tchaikovsky, Delius, Beethoven, Bach, Prokofiev, Stravinsky or any other classical music composers?
ChatGPT came back:
While there are terms for fans of certain composers like Wagnerians for Richard Wagner or Debussyists for Claude Debussy, there isn't a universally established convention for all composers from the period 1700 to 1920. Some composers may have dedicated followers who refer to themselves in a particular way, but these terms might not be widely recognized.
For example:
Lisztian for fans of Franz Liszt could be used informally, but it's not as widely recognized as terms like Wagnerians or Debussyists.
Holstian for fans of Gustav Holst is less common, but it could be understood in the context of discussions among enthusiasts.
Similar informal terms might exist for other composers, but they would likely vary in popularity and recognition.
In some cases, fans might simply refer to themselves as admirers or enthusiasts of a particular composer without using a specific term. The establishment of such terms often depends on the prominence of the composer and the strength of their fanbase.
However asking about clubs / societies was much better:
Are there any clubs or societies for fans of classical music composers to group together. For example, Schoenberg fans as an example, or Mozart fans?
Yes, there are indeed clubs, societies, and organizations dedicated to specific composers or classical music in general where fans can gather, share their passion, attend events, and discuss the music and its composers. These groups may vary in size, scope, and activity level, but they often serve as valuable resources for enthusiasts. Here are a few examples:
International Gustav Mahler Society: Dedicated to the life and works of Gustav Mahler, this society promotes research, performances, and publications related to Mahler's music.
Mozart Society of America: This organization focuses on promoting understanding and appreciation of the life and music of Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart through publications, conferences, and other activities.
The Wagner Society: Found in various cities worldwide, these societies are dedicated to the music and legacy of Richard Wagner. They often organize lectures, concerts, and other events related to Wagner's operas and music.
The International Schoenberg Society: This society is dedicated to the works of Arnold Schoenberg and aims to foster scholarly research, performances, and recordings of his compositions.
The Delius Society: Dedicated to the English composer Frederick Delius, this society promotes performances, recordings, and research related to Delius's music and life.
Tchaikovsky Society: Various organizations exist worldwide that celebrate the music of Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky, with activities ranging from concerts to educational programs.
Bach Societies: There are numerous organizations dedicated to the music of Johann Sebastian Bach, such as the American Bach Society or the Bach-Archiv Leipzig, which promote scholarship, performances, and recordings of Bach's works.
These societies often welcome members who are enthusiasts, scholars, performers, or anyone interested in the composer or their music. They provide a platform for individuals to connect with others who share their interest and to deepen their understanding and appreciation of classical music.
I was still not satisfied.... As I was sure there would be some nicknames - so tried looking for musician demonyms (as a word suggested by Claude) and found: https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/585375/what-is-the-equivalent-of-a-demonym-but-for-organizations that gave other suggestions to use (as "musician demonyms" and similar gave nothing new even adding in Debussyist, Wagnerian, etc.). This suggested Fandom and there's a Wikipedia list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fandom_names but the only composers are Gilbert and Sullivan - Savoyards. And there are several groups focusing on G&S operettas e.g. https://www.pittsburghsavoyards.org/wordpress/about/ or the https://www.thewestyorkshiresavoyards.com/
ReplyDeleteI also came across Bachian - but this is the same as the AI suggestians, adding -ian to the composers name. It seems as though most composers don't have the dedicated fanbase that Taylor Swift has - and so don't get named in the same way (with exceptions such as Wagnerian / Savoyard).
Arthur - These are wonderful comments! Thanks so much for putting your findings here.
DeleteFinally I went back to Claude and asked
ReplyDeleteAre there any fandom names for classical music composers?
"Yes, there are indeed some fandom names or demonyms used for fans of certain classical music composers:
Lisztomanias or Lisztians - For fans of Franz Liszt
Wagnerians - For fans of Richard Wagner
Brahmins - For fans of Johannes Brahms
Debussyists - For fans of Claude Debussy
Mozartians - For fans of Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart
Bachians or BachNers - For fans of J.S. Bach
Beethoveners or Beethovenians - For fans of Ludwig van Beethoven
Mahlerian - For fans of Gustav Mahler
Straussians - For fans of Richard Strauss
Schubertians - For fans of Franz Schubert
These names are used by ardent followers and admirer groups dedicated to celebrating and promoting the works of their favorite classical composer. Some are more widely used than others.
Many are formed by adding suffixes like "-ian" or "-ist" to the composer's name. A few like Lisztomanias, Bachners, and Brahmins have more creative adaptations.
However, not every major composer has an established fandom name. The demonyms seem to emerge more for the truly iconic figures of the classical canon. But they reflect the passionate fan bases that can develop around great composers and their music."
ChatGPT also answered the same question with a couple more:
"Yes, there are indeed fandom names or nicknames for some classical music composers, often used by enthusiasts, scholars, or within specific communities. Here are a few examples:
Beethoven: Often referred to simply as "Beethovenians" or "Beethoven buffs."
Mozart: Fans of Mozart might call themselves "Mozartians" or simply "Mozart aficionados."
Bach: Followers of Johann Sebastian Bach may dub themselves "Bach aficionados" or "Bach enthusiasts."
Chopin: Devotees of Frédéric Chopin might refer to themselves as "Chopinistas" or "Chopin lovers."
Tchaikovsky: Fans of Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky may call themselves "Tchaikovsky enthusiasts" or "Tchaikovskians."
Mendelssohn: Admirers of Felix Mendelssohn may refer to themselves as "Mendelssohnians" or "Mendelssohn enthusiasts."
These terms are informal and aren't as widespread or universally accepted as those found in pop culture fandoms, but they do exist within classical music circles as ways for enthusiasts to identify themselves and their appreciation for specific composers."
in more recent times - fandom, irrational projection, "little monsters"…
ReplyDeletehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stan_(song)
"Stan means an obsessive fan. It is a portmanteau of the words stalker and fan and is the name of an obsessed fan in the 2000 Eminem song of the same name."
https://www.grammarly.com/blog/portmanteaus/
https://fanlore.org/wiki/Stan
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisztomania
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bona_Dea
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beatlemania
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fest_for_Beatles_Fans
https://www.classical-music.com/articles/best-classical-music-festivals-in-usa-and-canada
Monsieur Croche
https://pianoinspires.com/5-things-debussy/
https://www.instagram.com/mr.croche/
Composers with most fanatical fans
Mahler
Wagner
Beethoven
Shostakovich
Bach
Scriabin
You're probably right about "most fanatical fans" being Mahler, Wagner, etc. ... but how did you find that list?
Deletereddit list
Deletehttps://www.google.com/search?q=most+fanatical+classical+composer+fans&rlz=1CAACAC_enUS1032&oq=most+fanatical+classical+composer+fans&aqs=chrome..69i57.20208j0j9&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
talented fan -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRfsibwR5x4
melomaniac
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/melomaniac
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisztomania
nicknames
https://www.talkclassical.com/threads/nicknames-for-musicians-composers.23859/
could be the definition of a fanatical fan… at least for Wagner.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VE03Lqm3nbI
Beethoven - the BeetGOAT?!
https://www.classical-music.com/articles/best-classical-music-festivals-in-usa-and-canada
https://bachtrack.com/playlist-top-ten-gustav-mahler-july-2023
now its not just listens, but views -
https://kworb.net/youtube/artist/ladygaga.html#google_vignette
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrO4YZeyl0I&t=4s
1:13:42
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOvXhyldUko
what was the prompt for the midjourney image?
ReplyDeletewere the composers identified?
Yes please - I'd love to know the prompt that produced that image.
DeleteIIRC, it was something like [ The composers Bach, Beethoven, Brahms, and Chopin are sitting around a coffee table with several cups of coffee in antique cups. Pages of handwritten music are on the table as well. ]
DeleteNote that I didn't say anything about Einstein (guy on the right), or the table being open on the side towards the "camera."
Al & Fred - ICRA… (https://prowritingaid.com/iirc-meaning)
Deletemany themed, see right column.
https://youtu.be/NNClz6gDB3c?si=cMrexE-e_XXoVwvI
Leo example -
https://youtu.be/F09hCjk3CDk?si=r2umZWWO8JelhIQz
Gus -
Deletehttps://youtu.be/kDb80aT-rCg?si=Yd4fP62vC9uFOhUF
a list - initially found in German…
ReplyDeletehttps://www.bontena.com/articles/Most-Famous-Classical-Music-Composers
ReplyDeletere: Lüftlmalerei… eye music?
https://www.jackpatersontheatre.com/oberammergau-passionsspiele-exploring-a-sacred-theatre-part-4/
https://willyorwonthe.wordpress.com/2024/01/03/mercoledi-musicale-330/
a little bird told me… or was it a mussel?https://yoshuabengio.org/
ReplyDeletehttps://foursquare.com/top-places/montreal/best-places-mussels
ReplyDeleteperhaps mathlady can de-cipher
https://sites.google.com/site/mcheng0606/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miranda_Cheng
https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=Ac5xBvAAAAAJ&hl=en
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renormalization_group
https://twitter.com/PeterWBattaglia
is that Philip Glass's cat?
ReplyDeletehttps://i.imgur.com/dW6YNtc.jpg
turns out it was Philip Guston's…
https://i.imgur.com/iPpAzuz.jpg